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adoption??..........this thread ANSWERED

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 21:04

It says Jane Ellen Anderson (widow) on marriage to Eli Evans -- because she was.

Why Jane Ellen Kelly on marriage to Charles Anderson -- that is the question.

The other question is why she said her father was William Griffiths when she married Evans. And gave her original surname as Griffiths on her child's birth certificate.

Those questions are what all this is in aid of answering! and hasn't.

It doesn't necessarily point to her parents being unmarried. We don't have the data for a conclusion. It is certainly one good possibility.

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 20:56

but why would it say jane ellen kelly on marriage to charles e anderson, and jane ellen anderson(widow) on marriage to eli evans? all points to her being illigitimate,doesnt it? or is mi brain addled with all the looking? lol

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 20:15

Nope. ;)

Where does 26 June 1894 come from?

Oh right, that's when Jane Ellen's birthday was celebrated.


edit

but these are the possibles


Births Jun 1894

Benfold Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 150
- died 1979 unmarried

Pilling Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 162
- married ?
- 1901 with parents Peter Pilling and Elizabeth (Cunliffe), Ashton in Makerfield (probably aged 7, not 9 as per Ancestry)
1911
PILLING JANE ELLEN 1894 17 Wigan with Peter


Births Sep 1894

Baldwin Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 11
- 1901 probably with mother Elizabeth in Aspull
1911
BALDWIN JANE 1895 16 Wigan
but I can't tell her relationship with the household

Cheetham Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 64
- may have married Unsworth 1912 Wigan or Darbyshire 1913 Wigan
- seems to be her in 1901:
District 47 Wigan
Thomas Spellsbury 38 - born Yorkshire Sheffield
Nancy Spellsbury 31 - born Durham
Janey Cheetham 6 - boarder
Eliza Spellsbury 3 Months - Eliza Coates Spillsbury Q1 1901 Wigan
Sarah Ann Shackleton 16
- can't identify a marriage; is Nancy a Coates?
- in 1891 Thomas seems to be married? to Sarah A. aged 32
1911; he died 1913 Wigan
CHEETHAM JANE ELLEN 1895 16 Wigan, daughter, with the Spillsburys

Green Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 15
Smith Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 118
- I've looked at both these before and they seemed to be settled with parents, as I recall

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 20:14

may be far-fetched,but is there anywhere i can put down "births . wigan. 26th june 1894"?

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 20:13

Elaine -- who is the person who has added to Amelia Bradshaw's name in the 1891 census at Ancestry?

Name: Amelia Bradshaw
[Amelia Miller]
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Daughter-in-Law
Spouse's Name: James Bradshaw
Where born: Haydock, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Hindley

Richard Bradshaw 70
Sarah Bradshaw 57
James Bradshaw 28
Amelia Bradshaw 24
Elizabeth Bradshaw 3
Richard Bradshaw 10/12


I think that is someone you want to contact. The addition was made in April 2010. If you subscribe at Ancestry you can contact that person through the system. If not, you can take out a 14-day free trial and be sure to send the person your email address.

Mind you ... that person has a family tree with 20,000+ names in it ... so there may be no real connection whatsoever.

According to the tree, Amelia Miller Bradshaw's parents were John Miller 1839 and Elizabeth Ashurst 1844. James Bradshaw's parents were Richard Bradshaw 1821 and Sarah Gore 1834. There's no Griffith or Griffiths in the tree. There are a few Kellys, but they appear unrelated.

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 20:12

thankyou. when i asked mi a.elsie bout "aunt amelia",she said it was kind of "showing-off" to their friends about the number of relations they had! the more relatives they had the better...so they called friends and neighbours,auntie. she said the only birth date she ever knew for her mother was 26th june 1894

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 19:58

Okay, so if they completed their national ID card registration before 6 Nov 1939, Jane Ellen would be on the record, and it would give an exact date of birth for her (at least to the best of her knowledge).

I think I would apply for that if I had the cash. Expensive, but the only way to get that info at present!

edit - crossed in the post - yes, it's more than I'd be spending myself.

And yes, children had to be registered in 1894. Which doesn't mean all were.


What I was asking about was FindMyPast -- but I've deleted what that was about because ...


Losing the thread and lost a couple of hours there. The info about Amelia Bradshaw is at bottom of page 3 and on page 4.

1911 in Platt Bridge

BRADSHAW AMELIA 1868 43 Wigan Lancashire
BRADSHAW JAMES 1864 47
BRADSHAW SARAH ELIZABETH 1888 23
BRADSHAW RICHARD 1890 21
BRADSHAW CATHERINE F 1894 17
BRADSHAW JAMES 1897 14
BRADSHAW GEORGE 1906 5 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD BRADSHAW AMELIA F 1908 3
No Jane any surname in household.


1901 - 107 Walthew Lane, Platt Bridge
James Bradshaw 38
Amelia Bradshaw 33 - born Haydock, Lancashire
Sarah E Bradshaw 13
Richard Bradshaw 10
Catherine Bradshaw 7
James Bradshaw 4


Marriages Sep 1887
BRADSHAW James Wigan 8c 1
MILLER Amelia Wigan 8c 1


So obviously Jane was not with her in 1901 or 1911 and we haven't sorted out the connection. I'll delete the irrelevant info above so as not to confuse.

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 19:56

will have to wait a while to get identity card janey...theres a charge of £42...i'll have to save up,cos we on old age pension. just in passing,did children HAVE to be registered in 1894? call it fanciful,but i wonder if jane ellens mother was a single parent called kelly,who either married a griffiths(jane ellens maiden name on 1917 marriage cert)or simply that william griffiths was her biological father who never married her mother?

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 19:39

i got a copy of jane ellens death certificate. details as follows:-no.284. 6th nov.1939 at 178,leigh rd.,atherton. jane ellen evans., female., wife of eli evans,general labourer., cancer of rt.breast.,certified by j.d gallagher., informant:-eli evans,present at death., registered 7th nov. sub-district of atherton in the county of lancaster.

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 19:26

do i subscribe to what janey? i am signed for 6mths on GR,and i pay a month by month one on another 2,i think!..one of them is one were you "pay" 5 or 10 credits to see things. btw..my amelia was married to a bradshaw.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 17:26

Just to add I found the easy way to search the 1901 by district, duh.

The general search form for UK censuses has spaces for

county or island - civil parish - district #

So just search for Jane by approx dob, district 22 then 23 then 24, if you want to check that out.


[deleted info that doesn't relate to Aunt Amelia *Bradshaw*]

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 16:09

In 1901, Walthew Lane is the dividing line between District 22 and District 24, I think. Actually there may be more of it ...

District 24
Platt Bridge, S. Nathaniel
West side of Liverpool Rd from the Primitive Methodist Chapel to Walthew Lane Nos 670-700 ... North East Side of Walthew Lane from Liverpool Road to the London and North Western Railway Bridge ... All the South West side of Walthew Lane from the London and North Western Railway Bridge to the west end of Platt Street ...

District 22
Platt Bridge, S. Nathaniel
On the North by the Middle of Liverpool Road; on the East by the Great Central Railway; on the south by the Township of [Abram?], on the West by the middle of Walthew Lane and Liverpool Rd

Also District 23
Platt Bridge, S. Nathaniel
(doesn't mention Walthew Lane)


At Ancestry, you can search within those districts in 1901 by using the district number as a keyword (and then checking the number is actually the "ED, institution, or vessel" and not the page number, for instance.

This brought me to someone I'd looked at before:

Name: Jane Darlysline - it says Darbyshire
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England

22 Walthew Lane
ED, institution, or vessel: 22

Richard Anderton 27
Eliza Anderton 27
Ellen Anderton 1
Jane Darlysline 7


There are Derbyshires in districts 22 and 24.

Thomas and Ann are at 665 Liverpool Rd, district 22. They have a brother- and sister-in-law Henry and Emily Hayes.
Joseph and Rachel are at 10 Platt Street.
Jane Derbyshire likely married Q1 1911 Wigan, to Barrington or Turner.


In District 24 there is a Jane Ellen Harrison c1895 (birth 1894 Wigan) born Platt Bridge, parents Edward and Elizabeth Ann (marriage 1888 Wigan), 672 Liverpool Rd. Jane is not with the household in 1911.

There was a Jane Ellen Harrison born in Wigan in Q4 1894 and another in Q2 1896. I see that one in 1911 (Jane Ellan) but not the 1894 one (not with parents), also no death or marriage 1901-1911; but she may be the Jane Harrison 1894, servant, Wigan in 1911.. The younger one is in the 1901 in Hindley with parents Richard and Elizabeth.

There's no Kelly in any of the three districts.

I think we've done this before, but there's no Jane or Amelia in Walthew Lane in 1911 to fit. However, there are Kellys:
Ellen 1852
Mary 1878
Thomas 1892
John 1904

No Griffith(s) in Walthew Lane.

[deleted info that doesn't relate to Aunt Amelia *Bradshaw*]

And the upshot is ... she must have lived in Walthew Lane between 1901 and 1911, and not in either of those years!


The only other thing that has caught my eye anywhere is this possible marriage:

Marriages Dec 1912
Garner Margaret E Roberts Toxteth P 8b 315
> Hughes Jane E Kelly Toxteth P. 8b 315
> KELLY Robert W Hughes Toxteth P 8b 315
ROBERTS Thomas W Garner Toxteth P. 8b 315

There are loads of Kelly-Hughes births, but only one in Toxteth Park, Robert H in Q3 1913. There are 6 Jane Ellen Hughes births in Wales 1893-1894.



I think what you want is the 1921 census. It will say something about your Jane Ellen's date/place of birth! It's only 11 years to 2022.

Have you considered applying for the 1939 national ID card?

http://www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm

Did you ever answer about when your Jane Ellen died? If it was this death that I asked about on p. 1

Name: Jane E Evans
Death Registration Month/Year: 1939
Age at death (estimated): 45 = dob c1894
Registration district: Leigh
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 416

then she died in Q4 1939. The law about the national ID card was passed in September 1939. She may well have been deceased before a card was completed. Amazing bad luck if so. Applying for the card for Eli Evans, head of household, would give the answer. The instructions for applying are at the site above.

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 12:35

back again! put surname kelly into 1911 census,looking for births around 1850s;60s and 70s(any of which would tally with them giving birth in 1894) only one which was anything like close was ellen kelly(my gran was jane ellen) who lived at 58,walthew lane;platt bridge(mi aunty said her mother staed for a time with auntys "aunty amelia" in walthew lane) household in 1911 was:-ellen kelly(59); thomas (19); ellen elleson (21) and patrick clarke (25),b.roscommon. no mention of a jane ellen,but in 1911,she would be about 17,so could have moved out.

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 01:47

lol...i did put kelly down too....nothing on ancestry...nothing on lancs bmd. beginning to think her mother had an immaculate conception!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 01:22

That isn't always the case -- father's name as middle name -- and in fact was fairly rarely the case. (My great-aunt is one example whose middle name we were always told was the surname of her "father", her mother's employer's son.)

You do know that to find marriage pairs at FreeBMD you search for William Griffiths spouse Kelly (for example) ... not just William Griffiths and then look at them all to find a Kelly!

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Apr 2011 01:15

mi grandma just seems to have appeared from knowhere! i have ploughed thro THOUSANDS of william griffiths marriages,looking for a kelly...was looking at 1915,'16 and '17,going on the wedding certs...no joy. i know that yrs ago,an illigitimate child had their fathers name incorporated somewhere(on my other grandads side..his dad was a nxt door neighbour..a mr morris--my grandad,even tho he went under stockton,the same as his siblings(mi a.annie(88)said they all had different dads!) they put the morris as his middle name! wonder if jane ellens mother ever did marry,or did she just tell her her fathers name,somewhere along the line? have done 2 trees..one back to 1208,and the other to 1500s...but this one and mi catherine rice one,need sherlock holmes to sort out!!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Apr 2011 00:49

Platt Bridge seems to be covered by Hindley in 1901.

[deleted info that doesn't relate to Aunt Amelia *Bradshaw*]

There are several Janes in Platt Bridge in 1911 who are niece, but none that looks like ours.

There are Kellys in Platt Bridge in 1911, but again, no Amelia and no Jane like ours.

Elaine

Elaine Report 17 Apr 2011 23:54

i know ..i'm bog-eyed looking for her! would be easier if i knew her mothers name..? kelly. mi aunty doesnt even know...she said nobody told them owt in them days...if women were talking and a child entered room they'd stop talking! dont think a.elsie ever knew her gran. my mum died of breast cancer at 61..jane ellen(her mum)died age 45,after having both breasts removed thro cancer...so i'm wondering if maybe there was a faulty gene,and her mother died early with it too?

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 17 Apr 2011 23:42

Before 1911, only the birth certificate will indicate the parents' marital status -- if a child is registered in its mother's surname, they were evidently not married.

There is no way to find out who lived with her at 50 Queen St in Wigan in 1915. I believe I did a search earlier here and noted that there were no surnames that seemed related living at any of the 50 Queen Sts in the Wigan area.

I don't think there can be any doubt that the marriage to Anderson in 1915 was your Jane Ellen, since all other details seem to match perfectly for the Charles Anderson groom.

Other than that, I'm just at a loss.

She could have been born to a Kelly mother who later married a Griffiths, or known that her father was Griffiths. But no Jane Ellen Kelly was born 1892-1895.

Elaine

Elaine Report 17 Apr 2011 23:35

hi,janey...i've been thro all records and found that charles e anderson was only married once to jane e kelly..have traced him back thro censuses. also grandma evans had anderson (widow)on wedding cert. to mi grandad. is there any way of finding whether a child was illigitimate or not? i googled illigitimate and bastard in wigan(where she lived when she married charles e anderson?),but didnt come up with anything. also how do i find out who lived with her at 50 queen st. wigan,in 1915? the wedding to charles was at st.josephs RC church; leigh....which was a surprise,cos mi mum always said her parents were welsh methodists,and jane ellen got married first in a catholic church,then secondly in a CofE church!