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adoption??..........this thread ANSWERED

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 28 Mar 2011 17:28

Like we wuz saying, if the ancestors had kept meticulous records and passed them on and never strayed from the facts (if they could even have spelled their names right!), we'd have no fun at all. ;)

Bated breath for the Kelly-Anderson marriage now.

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Mar 2011 17:24

i really didnt mean to offend anyone or dismiss their ideas out of hand...i don't think i said "no"..i think i just gave details i got off a bmd site,showing details of eli and jane e's wedding in 1917. sorry stafflass if i caused any offence..truly,none was meant. i always said i was a mixture..i changed to RC when i married..mi dads side was RC,then turned CofE,and i was Welsh Methodist on mi other grandmas' side! was always told that,but understand all avenues have to be explored....my gt gt grandad had several spellings of his name--denis;dennis;mahon;mahan!!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 28 Mar 2011 17:10

How many times were you asked for your mother's mother's surname from her birth record -- and then when you finally gave it, it was incorrect?

Staffslass, who I don't think had posted in this thread before, posted the detailed 1911 census for the household I was looking into. Your only reply was, to summarize it, "no".

Glad you've found page 3, anyway. ;)

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Mar 2011 16:52

i know very well how much work people on here have done for me,but i am always sure to say thankyou..thats the way i was brought up. i read EVERYTHING pertaining to me on here...i love the different spins that are offered. could you please tell me what i have not answered,despite repeated requests. may i also add,it was only sat or sun that i found out that the page nos. applied to me! i might be a bit computer illiterate,but i couldn't understand where my replies where going when i pressed submit! i did put a message on asking where my replies had gone.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 28 Mar 2011 16:50

You've been told that Jane Ellen was born in Wales, by people who were told she was born in Wales.

Do you know how many people are told things that aren't fact??

Maybe the person who first told them thought they were fact. Maybe they just didn't know. Maybe they made it up.

My mum's entire family was told that her grandfather's name was Monck and his father's name was Monck. It wasn't. His name was Hill. I only know this from months of research that I started when I could find no trace of any such Moncks. In this case, he lied intentionally, for reasons I now know. But all his Monck children were telling the truth as they knew it, because their own births, and their children's and now great-great-grandchildren's births, were registered as Monck.

Sometimes things are a simple as a child growing up in one place so thinking they were born there, when they weren't.

Some things people say are absolutely 100% correct. Some aren't. We have no way of knowing until we find the evidence one way or another.

If we believed everything our ancestors said ... well, some of us would never find them!

We who have been doing this for years know not to take any info at face value. Every avenue has to be explored to prove or disprove the info. When info to support a story can't seem to be found, other possibilities have to be explored.

The Kelly-Anderson marriage certificate is one possibility to explore, so we'll wait for that.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 28 Mar 2011 16:39

Elaine ... you just don't seem to notice anything posted here ... things that various people have spent time thinking about and looking into ... except to say "no", and not answer questions despite repeated requests.

You did notice that although you insisted your mother's mother's name on the birth reg was Griffith, I explained that it is not, it is GriffithS?

Maybe I won't insult you by offering information and suggestions that are so plainly wrong.

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Mar 2011 16:39

my granny,jane ellen was born in wales tho....i been told that from being small(overr 60yrs ago!)by my mum,aunties and grandad

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Mar 2011 16:37

janey...i'm not without manners you know! lol i've said thankyou a few times,on different threads....i looking up paternal grandmas' line;paternal grandads line;maternal grandmas line(jane ellen)and intend doing maternal grandad(eli)next. and i only started 25th march!! i also put down several times that i don't know how you all do it,as i looked on same sites with no luck! so please don't insult me by asking for thanks. xx

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 28 Mar 2011 15:52

I have one more to throw into the mix!


Births Mar 1893
Griffiths Jane Ellen Toxteth Park 8b 184

If she was born after 10 Feb and before March 31, she would have been 23 on 10 Feb.


1901

Name: Jane Griffiths
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Where born: N
- patient in hospital

Civil parish: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire

Registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: City Hospital Parkhill


Also in the hospital are:

Name: Hailes John Griffiths (it says Charles)
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
- "cousin to" Jane Griffiths

Name: George Griffitts (it says Griffiths)
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893


(they aren't the George Hugh and John Charles in West Derby in 1911, unless their mother included them in the household in the 1901 in Wavertree when they were really in hospital)


Being in hospital would be one reason for not finding our Jane in a household with a father William in 1901. Seeing the related children there suggests either a disease that affected a family or some event like a house fire -- in either case the parents could have died.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 28 Mar 2011 15:14

Elaine ... census ages are not always accurate. Perhaps especially for a person who was not a child of the head of the family. Nor were ages on marriage certificates always accurate.

Your Jane was somewhere in 1911.

Yes, let's see what the marriage certificate tells us.


Thanks, Staffslass!

-- edit -- for the record -- 15 april --

I think that Jane Kelly in 1911, daughter of Michael, niece of Jones, is really Lettice Mary Kelly aged 6 in the 1901 census, born Jun Q 1894, Haverfordwest, who was just tired of her name.

I think she married Mr John as Lettuce M Kelly in Pembroke in 1920 and died as Lettuce M John in 1938 in Haverfordwest. There's no other birth to account for the marriage and death, and there's no Lett* Kelly in the 1911.

So I'm confident we can rule that one out.

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Mar 2011 14:41

have sent for copy of marriage cert for charles e anderson and jane e kelly. will see how we go from there

Elaine

Elaine Report 28 Mar 2011 14:18

this jane was born in 1895....my jane was 23 when she married my grandad.eli(22),10th Feb.1917 at st.john the baptist(atherton parish church) so that would mean she was born in 1894. grooms father>william evans,collier. brides father>william griffiths,collier

Staffslass

Staffslass Report 28 Mar 2011 09:16

JC as requested.

1911 census - household transcription

Person: KELLY, Lewis John
Address: Tiddlers Green Freystrop Near Haverford West Pembrokeshire

Cost:
You will be charged 10 credits for a transcript and 30 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.

census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image
JONES, Margrett Head Widow F 37 1874 Widow Of Coalminer Underground Freystrop Pem VIEW
JONES, Sidney Son M 9 1902 Freystrop Pem VIEW
JONES, Thomas Gorden Son M 8 1903 Freystrop Pem VIEW
JONES, Williamj Son M 5 1906 Freystrop Pem VIEW
JONES, John Son M 3 1908 Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Michael Brother Widower M 40 1871 Dock Labourer Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Lewis John Nephew Single M 19 1892 Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Jane Niece Single F 16 1895 Fish Backey Cott Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Edith Maud Niece F 13 1898 Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Michael Nephew M 11 1900 Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Margaret Elizabeth Niece F 9 1902 Freystrop Pem VIEW
KELLY, Thomas Nephew M 8 1903 Freystrop Pem VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
33183 Reference:
RG14PN33183 RG78PN1902 RD602 SD1 ED9 SN45

Registration District:
Haverfordwest Sub District:
Milford Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Freystrop

Address:
Tiddlers Green Freystrop Near Haverford West Pembrokeshire County:
Pembrokeshire

S. x


JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 23:53

Here is an interesting household in 1911.

KELLY MICHAEL 1871 40 Haverfordwest Pembrokeshire
KELLY LEWIS JOHN 1892 19
> KELLY JANE 1895 16
KELLY EDITH MAUD 1898 13
KELLY MICHAEL 1900 11
KELLY MARGARET ELIZABETH 1902 9
HOUSEHOLD KELLY THOMAS 1903 8


No Jane Kelly in 1901.

But here is Lewis John Kelly in 1901:

Name: Lewis J Kelly
Age in 1901: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation: Nephew
Where born: Llangwm, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Civil parish: Freystrop
Ecclesiastical parish: Freystrop
Town: Freystrop
County/Island: Pembrokeshire

Registration district: Haverfordwest

John Jones 32
Margrett Jones 27
Lewis J Kelly 10


and the rest of the household in 1901 in the same location:

Michael Kelly 31
Hannah Kelly 34
James Bennett 10
Hannah J Bennett 7 (it says Kelly)
Lettice M Kelly 6
Sarah A Kelly 4
Edith M Kelly 3
Michael Kelly 1

Marriages Jun 1892
BENNETT Hannah Haverfordwest 11a 1638
Kelly Michael Haverfordwest 11a 1638


So where did that Jane Kelly in 1911 come from?

Can someone get the details of the 1911 household? ;)

edit -- by guesswork, she was shown as Niece.


It is interesting, isn't it, Elaine?? Without mystery ancestors, family history would be a boring old game. ;)

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 23:46

will try. think mi grandma was either same age as grandad(b.1894)or 1 yr older(b.1893?) i'm just loving all this! contacted another member re my other grandad side and she sent me copies(by e-mail) of marriage certs,etc

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 23:31

This is that Jane in 1911

FITZPATRICK JANE ELLEN 1899 12 Wigan Lancashire
living with
GRIFFITHS MRS MARY 1858 53
FITZPATRICK STEPHEN 1879 32
FITZPATRICK NORA 1884 27

There's no marriage for a Jane E Fitzpatrick in Lancashire.
There's a marriage for a Jane E Griffiths to Unsworth in Wigan in 1925.

... and I think I have now ruled out that Jane Ellen Griffiths born 1898! --

Name: Jane Ellen Unsworth
Birth Date: 3 Sep 1898
Death Registration Month/Year: 1975
Registration district: Wigan
Inferred County: Greater Manchester
Volume: 39
Page: 2249


All herrings must be followed down their path and ruled out. ;)


I think we do really need the Charles E Anderson + Jane E Kelly marriage certificate.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 23:16

This is the Charles Edward Anderson whose WWI death record I posted on page 1 -- who was possibly married to Jane E Kelly in 1915 in Wigan:


1901

Name: Charles E Anderson
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James H Anderson
Mother's Name: Winfred Anderson
Gender: Male
Where born: Atherston, Lancashire, England (it says Atherton)

Civil parish: Hindley (district 14)
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
> Town: Hindley
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Wigan

James H Anderson 34 - born Wales
Winfred Anderson 36 - born Ireland
William Anderson 10
Charles E Anderson 9
Lucy Anderson 2


James Anderson married Winifred Patten 1889 Leigh, but I can't find a birth for Charles. (Atherton is in Leigh reg dist.)


When I looked him up, I had already been paying some attention to this person in 1901:

Name: Jane Ellen Griffith
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary Griffith
Where born: Hindley, Lancashire, England

> Civil parish: Hindley (district 17)
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Hindley
County/Island: Lancashire

Mary Griffith 43
Stephen Fitzpatrick 22
Norah Fitzpatrick 17
Catherine Mary Fitzpatrick 15
Michael Fitzpatrick 6
Jane Ellen Griffith 2


Births Sep 1898
Griffiths Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 119


This is a little confusing because in 1891, that family has parents Michael and Mary Fitzpatrick (Michael was born in Ireland, died in 1897). If Jane Ellen Griffith(s) was Mary's daughter, where did Mary and Jane get the surname Griffith(s)?


This Jane would not have been old enough to marry in 1915 -- except that the Jane E Kelly who married Charles E Anderson was apparently pregnant ...

... and might possibly have lied about her age ... and even her name.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 27 Mar 2011 21:43

Actually, Elaine, your mother's birth registration says her mother's surname was GriffithS.

Maybe your aunt made a point of saying it was not GriffithS, it was Griffith, because it had been got wrong on records.

But it really does seem to be GriffithS everywhere, including her father's name when she married Eli Evans.

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 16:12

my mums birth record says mothers maiden name>griffith

Elaine

Elaine Report 27 Mar 2011 16:04

sorry...she was born in the house i was born in....178,leigh rd. howe bridge(a district of atherton)lancashire