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Hi Jill
Don't know if you know this. Check out oldbaileyonline.org and look for reference t18480821-1933
This is for Mary Spry and her daughter Mary Ann Dore trial transcripts mention Princess Sophia and the steward working for her. (no name given apart from spry). I'm researching for my undergraduate dissertation on criminal poisonings. The 2 women were charged with murdering Mary Ann's daughter (4 months) using poison. They were found not guilty.

And now I can't spot them on the 1851 !! I will sort through my notes as I'm sure I have seen them there ...

Jill

Hi Kim

The family in 1841:

Louisa Spry
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St George Hanover Square
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Sub-registration district: Belgrave
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 732
Book: 7
Folio: 39
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Spry 40
Mary Ann Spry 15
Elizabeth Spry 15
Louisa Spry 15
Thursa Spry 12
Alfred Spry 5
Samuel Spry 4


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 732; Book: 7; Civil Parish: St George Hanover Square; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 23; Folio: 39; Page: 19; Line: 5; GSU roll: 438834.



Jill

Hi Jill

Whereabouts in London? I'm having a little difficulty in pinning them down....

BWs

Kim

Hi Kim

Mary and the children are in London in 1841 and 1851.

I've eliminated John being with Princess Sophia in 1841, so I'm assuming he is somewhere on his own. He could be in residence at another posh house I suppose and it's likely that he's mistranscribed as Spry is not that easy to read on the old documents.

I've no idea where he might be in 1851 as Princess Sophia had died in 1848 and never got on with Queen Victoria so I assume that John was no longer "in" with royalty ... could be wrong but until I find him I'm sort of relying a bit on gut feeling.

Thanks for your help.

Jill

Hi Jill

Yes - on the London Marriages and Banns 1754 to whenever on Ancestry but I don't think they have all of the churches in the Westminster area. Do you have the census references - where did Mary say she was born in 1851? I did find baptisms for a number of children born to John (a servant) and Mary.

It's possible, I suppose, that he may have been at one of the other Royal residences on census nights, or maybe the story is an apocryphal one.

Best wishes

Kim

Hi Kim

Have you found those on the parish records? I must be searching badly. I'll go and have another hunt ...

I believe they were both born in Devon. Mary was plus the first 4 children then the rest were born in London - around St Geo Hanover Square.

Mary and the children were in London in 1841 and 1851.

Many thanks

Jill

There's also a marriage at the same church on 25 Jan 1821 between John Spry (a widower) and Mary Dibble. John has a middle name which has been transcribed as "Brah" but which looks much more to me like "Crah" or even "Crap"

There's a marriage on A*try for a John Spry and Mary Ann Winship at St George Hanover Square on 3 Sep 1826

Right sort of location for a servant in one of the grander establishments. Whereabouts were Mary and the children in the census, Jill?

Hi Barry

Yes, I've seen that tree, but I'm not 100% convinced as there is another tree showing a marriage to a different Mary.

Also, I think it's this tree that shows the family in Devon in 1841 with John as an Ag Lab, which I know is not right.

There is a child born to the family in the 1840s which will help with Mary's surname, but it's frustrating not being avle to find the chap in 1841 or 1851.

Thanks for looking though ...

Jill

From an Ancestry tree - could this be him?

John Spry b 1789- (no place on record) died 10 April 1858 Chelsea(ST Lukes) married to a Mary Elson b 1801 KENTON Devon died 1872 St George's Hanover Sq London
Children
Elizabeth Susan b Exeter
Louisa b Middlesex
Mary Ann b 1827 Exeter - d 1880 Lambeth
Theresa b 1830 Chelsea
William b 1832 London
Alfred Francis b 1835 London - died 1891 London
Samuel John b 1837 Brompton Middlesex - died1881 Wandsworth Surrey
No parents for John or Mary on tree

Marriage from familysearch.org
John Spry to Mary Elson 16 July 1819 St Peter's Exeter
Batch no M050902-1
Most of the above childrens' births are on familysearch with addition of Elizabeth who maybe a twin of Louisa

The family, with the exception of John can be found on the 1841 census by searching for THURSA Spry(mistranscription of Theresa) b 1830 Middlessex

Oh thank you all ... I feel like I can finally make a bit of headway. Even if he's not with Sophia in 1841 it gives me reason to go on looking for him on his own so it all helps.

Never thought I'd find myself looking for members of the royal family!

Thank you

Jill

And in 1841

Name: Queen Victoria
[Victoria of The United Kingdom]
[Alexandrina Victoria Von Saxe-Coburg-Gotha]
[Alexandrina Victoria Von Hanover]
[The Queen]
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Martin in The Fields
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: St Martin in the Fields
Sub-registration district: Charing Cross
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 740
Book: 9
Folio: 3
Page Number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Queen The Queen 20
Hrh Prince Albert 20
The Princess Royal 6 MO
Earl of Aboyne 45
George Thos Keppell 40
Edward Praetorius 30
Thomas Batchelar 55
Augustus Fredk Gerding 40
William Peel 20
George Wakeley 50
Thomas Hill 40
Isaac Cart 30
Andrew Dekler 30
Thomas Cooper 25
Charles Woolger 30
James Woods 30
Joseph Martin 35
Charles Benda 20
Henry Lawley 25
William Sheppard 45
John Wilde 40
William Weightman 40
Robert Renwick 40
James Atten 20
Charles Knott 60
Louisa Desyen 50
Harriet Lester 30
Amelia Matilda Murray 45
Mary Wakeley 45
Marianna Skerrett 40
Wilhelmina Singer 30
Jane Peandle 25
Rebecca Ward 15
Sarah Soushey 55
Ann Roberts 30
Jane Ratsey 30
Charlotte Whiting 15
Elizabeth Lindsay 30
Lucy Maine 35
Mary Ann Forss 30
Charlotte Colson 35
Elizabeth Brand 40
Ann Elizth Ashforth 35
Mary Ann Polbury 35
Elizabeth Ford 40
Sarah Chappell 25
Mary Jeffs 30
Ann Vaughan 5
Margaret Wingate 40
Hannah Hobbs 25
Eliza Mander 30
Catherine Wright 25
Ellen Lindsay 25
Elizabeth Smith 30
Sarah Farmer 30
Louisa Foeaker 25
Georgiana Collett 25
Mary Merrick 60
Elizabeth Edmonds 30
Mary Heath 35
Lucy Wing 30

Here is how Queen Victoria is List on Ancestry in 1851

Name: Her Majesty Alexandrina Victoria
[Queen Victoria]
[Her Majesty Alexandrina Victoria]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Wife
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Palace, Kensington
[Kensington Palace, London]

Civil parish: St George Hanover Square
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Sub-registration district: Belgrave
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 1478
Folio: 645
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Her Majesty Alexandrina Victoria 31

To find The Queen-look for:Edward Praetorius.

Maureen

Not any help I know but he is not living in Princess Sophia's household in 1841

Name: H Princess Sophia
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1776
Gender: Female

Civil parish: Greenwich
Hundred: Blackheath
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Rangers House

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 489
Book: 1
Folio: 40
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
H Princess Sophia 65
Alicia Gordon 50
Elizth Powel 45
Rone Kavanagh 25
Caroline Bovay 25
Robt Drury 46
John Gardner 45
Mary Roberts 44
Martha Clayton 35
Susan Male 26
Elizth Winter 25
Ann Griffith 46
Sarah Roether 37
John Cackeril 40
Thos Matthews 36
Henry Woollett 30

Hi All

I am chasing an elusive ancestor John Spry (born c.1800 - probably in Devon). During the 1840s he was steward / butler to Princess Sophia - one of Queen Victoria's aunts. It's probable that he was working for her in 1841. The family were living in London by then.

(I've found his wife Mary and most of the children in 1841 and in 1851 but no sign of John. I believe he died in 1858.)

Princess Sophia was living with Queen Victoria in Kensington Palace when she died in 1848.

So, simple question. How do I find either Princess Sophia or Queen Victoria in 1841? How do I look for royalty on the censuses?

Many thanks

Jill