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It is very strange, as Mike said, that freebmd (and of course ancestry bmd) have the GRO record showing them marrying in March quarter 1858


It is no surprise that ancestry shows the same as freebmd ................ as they bought the bmd records from 1837 to 1915 from freebmd :-)


One possibility is clerical errors ....... delay in sending the records from with church or Liverpool Registry Office to GRO, and wrong year date added (possibly an attempt to cover up the error?????

OR the vicar mis-dated the register????????



The Lancashire bmd site also shows marriage in 1858

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1858

MOLYNEUX Ellen LIVINGSTONE James Liverpool, All Souls Liverpool 2021LP/1/9




sylvia

This is the marriage from ancestry

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Ellen Molyneux

Name: Ellen Molyneux
Birth Year: abt 1834
Age: 23
Marriage Date: 7 Mar 1857
Parish: Vauxhall All Souls
Spouse's Name: James Livington
Father's Name: John Molyneux
Spouse Father's Name: David Livington


from image:-

Ellen
Age 23
Spinster
no occupation shown
Address:- 4 Gt Johnson Street
Father occupation- Labourer

James
Age 24
Bachelor
Occupation: Carter
Address:- 4 Gt Johnson St
Father occupation:- Labourer


Witnesses:- Thomas Holmes and Anna Blackworth (maybe!)



By the way ....... the fact that John and Ellen give the same address on the certificate does NOT mean that they were living together or even at the same address.

You will see bride and groom giving the same address on many certificates ............ it merely means that one of them did not live in the Parish in which they were marrying.

In that case, Banns were supposed to be called in both churches, but that cost money .............. so many people just said they lived at the same address so that the wedding was not too expensive.


You can make no assumption from the addresses on a marriage certificate.




sylvia


edited ca 7 pm Feb 17 ... bridegroom was JAMES


sorry!

Mike I suppose that is true. Also it;s hard to actually put a birth year for him. The reason I say this is on our Canadian census for 1901 it states he was born Dec.18/1859 and 1911 states he was born in Dec.1860 and on his death certificate it states he was born Dec. 10/1857 so its mind boggling trying to get a birth certificate or proof of his birth and whether his parents were the James and Ellen mentioned as I can't find if they had children

As I posted yesterday .....



Something odd about the dates..........


Freebmd version

Marriages Mar 1858
LIVINGSTONE James - Liverpool 8b 285
Molyneux Ellen - Liverpool 8b 285

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Familysearch version ( extracted record )


James Livingstone --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: David Livington

-------Marriages:
Spouse: Ellen Molyneux
Marriage: 07 MAR 1857 All Souls Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England


By the way, someone can be registered in one surname and then Christened with another.

Or if born Dec 1857 they could have delayed the boy's registration until after they married in March 1858

Mike I have the marriage certificate. [MXE 080925] it states marriage March 7th 1858 All Souls Church, Liverpool
where did you get the following info from
-------Marriages:
James Livingstone
Spouse: Ellen Molyneux
Marriage: 07 MAR 1857 All Souls Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thanks ...Gary

I personally do not have the evidence but was given notice of the fact that he was christened a Livingstone by the afore named relative. I've just emailed her to get an update on her findings

So you have no written evidence anywhere that James is his father
.
In fact he appears to be acknowledging the fact that he was actually born as Molyneux.

Yes Margee, he was married in Canada. I have a copy of his marriage certificate .it states his mothers name as Ellen and his father as Molyneux which is not his name but Ellens maiden name of which i found to be fact through a relative of mine his grandaughter. and through research found the only ellen molyneux at that time married to a livingston(e) was to a James

Ann (nee Molyneux) Tickle b/1820 daughter of john & Elizabeth Molyneux m/22/09/1839 to a Matthew Tickle

I was told by a descendant of Ann Tickle that James was living there in about 1851 on til he married Ellen
James Livingston(e) - boarder

In 1861 Ann is remarried:

1861 England Census
about Matthew Tickel Name: Matthew Tickel
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Stepson
Mother's Name: Ann Burns
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 203
Piece: 2650
Folio: 126
Page Number: 31
Household Members: Name Age
Lawrence Burns 52
Ann Burns 46
James Tickel 19
Matthew Tickel 16
John Tickel 13

So when was James boarding with Ann?

I tried the James Molyneux route it didn't pan out
I have info that James sr. was boarding with Ann Tickle and her sister Ellen on Eaton Street. at the time of James jr's birth.
So she could of given him the Livingstone surname as they were married shortly after in 1858. also the year of his birth
could be anywhere from 1857 to 59.
The reason I'm saying this apparently, he never spoke of his life back in England much to his children and they only knew aprox. of the year he was born?

I'm just trying to figure out when James Sr. and Ellen were living with Ellen's sister Ann Tickle, widow. I see Ann married Matthew Tickle in 1839:

Marriages Sep 1839 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MOLYNEUX Ann Liverpool 20 161
Tickle Matthew Liverpool 20 161

And Matthew died in 1849:

Deaths Dec 1849 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tickle Matthew Liverpool 20 225

So Ellen was living with Ann in 1851:

1851 England Census
about Ann Fickel Name: Ann Fickel
[Ann Tickle]
[Ann Tickle]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Head
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Kirby, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: Vauxhall
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Howard Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 1o
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 160
Piece: 2178
Folio: 466
Page Number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Fickel 31
Ellen Molyneux 18
James Sickle 9
Mathew Sickle 6
John Sickle 3
William Bradley 40
Mary Bradley 32
William Bradley 12

I tried that scenario didn't pan out.
From what i've gathered James. was boarding with Ellen and her sister Ann Tickle a widow on Eaton Street at Anns home at the time. So he possibly was given the name Livingstone because Ellen and James were married shortly after his birth.
Or he might really have been born at a later date?

Just so that we know where we are ...

is this the certificate you have ( the wrong one ) ?


Births Dec 1858 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Levingston James - Liverpool 8b 80

Thanks for the clarification, Gary. I had understood that you had the birth certificate for your James but it was the other one you had.

What about the fact that you're sure your James was born 1857 and mother's name was Ellen Molyneux but she married a James Livingstone in 1858. Could James have been born a Molyneux?

So it looks like you need the birth cert for James Molyneux ( March 1858 posted above)
He was born before Ellen married James so would have been registered in his mother's maiden name.

Presumably he then took the name of Livingstone ( he may not even have known he was born Molyneux)


EDIT :

Something odd about the dates.


Freebmd version

Marriages Mar 1858
LIVINGSTONE James - Liverpool 8b 285
Molyneux Ellen - Liverpool 8b 285

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Familysearch version ( extracted record )

James Livingstone --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: David Livington

-------Marriages:
Spouse: Ellen Molyneux
Marriage: 07 MAR 1857 All Souls Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

The clarification is I have the birth certificate of a James born in 1858 son of John & Elizabeth. He is not the James i'm seeking.
I sent for for the certificate to see if he was the James I was looking for. He was not, wrong mother & father. He may be related in some way?
But i'm looking for a different James with a mother Ellen [nee Molyneux] and a father named James

The clarification is I have the birth certificate of a James born in 1858 son of John & Elizabeth. He is not the James i'm seeking.
I sent for for the certificate to see if he was the James I was looking for. He was not, wrong mother & father. He may be related in some way?
But i'm looking for a different James with a mother Ellen [nee Molyneux] and a father named James

Did your James marry in Canada then? If so do you have marriage certificate with father's name?