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George Reed/Read married to Elizabeth Scarr

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Caroline

Caroline Report 15 Jan 2013 19:10

Anne, that's quite confusing as this is exactly where her daughter Florence ends up after Charlottes first husband dies in 1895. Florence is shown as an inmate here on the 1901 census and she did, indeed, go off into service from here. Apparently this place trained the children/inmates for either the army or service.

Shall investigate this more. It appears that when a family went to the St. Pancras area workhouse, the older children were despatched to Watford.

Thank you thank you thank you!!

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 15 Jan 2013 19:28

Working backwards a bit.

I think this may be Charlotte's mother in 1911

Name: Elizabeth Read
Age in 1911: 82
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation to Head: Mother-In-Law
Gender: Female
Birth Place: LONDON, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 71 Avenell Road, Highbury N
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Islington
Registration District Number: 10
Sub-registration district: Highbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Piece: 991
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles H Parker 61
Elizabeth Parker 50 Married 30 years, 6 children born 4 living
Alice E Parker 25
Ada E Parker 21
Lily B Parker 15
Elizabeth Read 82
Gertrude Nickson 22


????

1891

Name: Elizabeth A Read
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch, London, England
Civil parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Davids
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 55a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 161
Folio: 63
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred S Luna 39
Emma Luna 33
Alfred F Luna 12
Thomas Luna 7
Elizabeth A Read 65

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 15 Jan 2013 19:28

Caroline,
Just to clarify
Can you return to the 1861 census for the Read family at Hastings Street, St Pancras.
The lodger living with the Read family is called George Galloway not George Galloway Read/Reed
He is a widower, born in Windsor, Berkshire.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 15 Jan 2013 19:40

1891

Name: Charlotte Caplin
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Edward Caplin
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Lukes Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 39
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 312
Folio: 90
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Caplin 34
Charlotte Caplin 24
Florence Caplin 5
Rosina M Caplin 2
Ellis C Caplin 2/12


???

Births Sep 1886 Caplin Charlotte Florence Islington 1b 381


Births Mar 1889 Caplin Rosina Maud Stepney 1c 448


The Ellis on the census should be Ellie?

Births Mar 1891 CAPLIN Nellie Christina Mile End Old Town 1c 581


Those birthplaces match those given for the children on the census.

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 15 Jan 2013 19:49

OOOH!I smell a rat!
Why does Charlotte name her father as George Galloway Read?
Unless I am mistaken ( not unusual for me)
Have a look at this....

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about George Reed
Name: George Reed
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1866
Age at Death: 56
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 92 (click to see others on page)
If this was Elizabeth's husband.... he could not be Charlotte's father!
Also means that son George was NOT lying about his father being dead when he married.

Is Charlotte the daughter of the man called George Galloway and not George Read?
Baptised as Charlotte Read: Parents George and Elizabeth
Technically, it does not actually say father was George Read, and of course looks exactly like all the other Read baptisms.
Is the man on the 1871 census actually that George Galloway using the name of Read?
Both Georges were cabbies and roughly the same age

Am I barking???

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 15 Jan 2013 19:54

Marriages Dec 1908

CAPLIN Nellie Christina Poplar 1c 777
LEE Charles James Poplar 1c 777
WIGGER William George Poplar 1c 777
WILTSHIRE Annie Poplar 1c 777

Marriages Mar 1917
CAPLIN Rosina M Lapham Bethnal G. 1c 223
Lapham Bertram A Caplin Bethnal G. 1c 223


1911

Name: Rosina Caplin
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Stepney
Civil parish: Stoke Newington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 33 Listria Park Stoke Newington N
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Servant (domestic)
Registration district: Hackney
Registration District Number: 11
Sub-registration district: Stoke Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 1008
Household Members:
Name Age
Alexander Tertis 59
Anneta Tertis 48
Betty Weiesburg 90
Rosina Caplin 22

Caroline

Caroline Report 15 Jan 2013 20:28

If you're barking Anne then we are howling together honey!!

This is what I was wondering....when Charlotte is three, George Galloway is living in the house. George Reed is aged 59. I was wondering if Mrs Reed and lodger George are "friendly" and instead of marrying her he just adopts the name of Reed to become George Galloway Reed, like a hyphenated name.

Any thoughs?

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 15 Jan 2013 20:48

(looking in!)

1876 Elizabeth Ann Read Death...(address as, 15, Peace Cottages)

1866 George Reed Death...(abode, St. Pancras Workhouse)


(had a few credits for Deceased Online website) (Burials)

Chris :)

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 15 Jan 2013 20:58

Caroline,
look back at the thread:
George Galloway is not listed in the 1871 household when Charlotte is 3yrs old
He is on the 1861 census, 6yrs before Charlotte was born.
He is not listed on any census as George Reed Galloway or George Galloway Reed.

Possible spanner in the works, although there is no age given...

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about George Galloway
Name: George Galloway
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1865
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 103 (click to see others on page)

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 15 Jan 2013 21:06

Hi Chris,
I am certain that you have posted the correct deaths for George Reed and his wife, Elizabeth Ann, which would account for Charlotte being in the Industrial School at 1881
Based on the Death Registration for George Reed, which is 2nd quarter of 1866, he could not be Charlotte's biological father.
She was born Sep 1867

Caroline

Caroline Report 15 Jan 2013 21:06

My mistake Anne, just seems like the HUGEST coincidence doesn't it? He is on the 1861 as George Galloway but we don't know when he vacated the property and Charlotte wasn't born until 1867... On the 1871 census, there is only George Reed listed.

Caroline

Caroline Report 15 Jan 2013 21:08

Mrs Rootie you are wonderful, how have you managed to find all this stuff so quickly?? I am feeling such a klutz now LOL?

You have helped immensely to clear a few things up and make this picture easier to see. Biggest thank you x

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 15 Jan 2013 21:26

So the question remains...
Who is the impostor on the 1871 census?
Was this man really there on census night?
Or did Elizabeth Ann forget to tell the enumerator that her husband had died?

Caroline

Caroline Report 15 Jan 2013 22:34

Anne if you can give me the answer to that I shall be a very happy me!

Chris I am edging on the death doings being right, shall be looking into this more over the next day or so, thank you for all your help.

Mrs Rootie have you had time to do anything else today? Do I need to send apologies to your family for a late meal this evening LOL?

You know when you just get a feeling something is right? I am having that feeling for the George Galloway slipping into the shoes of George Reed without the wedding certificate, does anyone know if there was such. Thing as a deed poll name change doodah in the 1800's? I am wondering why he would be George Galloway Reed on Charlottes wedding notice otherwise, it would explain things wouldn't it?

Please sleep well all, you must be jiggered after running around after me all day!
Goodnight
X

Jill 2011 (aka Warrior Princess of Cilla!)

Jill 2011 (aka Warrior Princess of Cilla!) Report 16 Jan 2013 14:04

On the Electoral Roll George Reed is living at 15 Peace Cottages (dwelling house) between 1873 and 1878.

Not sure how helpful this is ...

Caroline

Caroline Report 16 Jan 2013 17:41

Hi Jill

Thanks for that.

The big issue at the moment is whether the original George Reed has died and been replaced by George Galloway. Both George, very similar age, both cabmen. When the eldest son marries he is aged 20yrs and 10 months and states his father is deceased. When the youngest daughter Charlotte marries for the second time in 1898, she names her father as George Galloway Reed. The lodger at 13 Hastings Street in 1861 is George Galloway.

Did the original George die? Was his place taken by the lodger? Is the lodger really the father of the younger three children?

More investigating this evening. My poor husband is starving, the cat has left home, the sink is pilled with dirty dishes, the post is stacked up in front of the front door, the bed is unmade....LOL....

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 17 Jan 2013 11:24

Caroline, firstly no problem about meal on Tuesday, OH works late and eats out. I was enjoying myself on here anyway!

Reading (excuse slight pun) through this again, I now think that George Read had died and was quickly replaced in Elizabeth's affections by George Galloway. Understandable and not uncommon as he was already living there and she had all those children. It also may go part way to explain son George marrying quite young - perhaps he disliked or resented George Galloway.

It would appear that Charlotte knew that George Galloway was her father but appeared on the census as Read, the same surname as her siblings as the older children probably didn't want to change their surname to Galloway as they would remember their father.

If Elizabeth Ann had died that would explain the children being put into care but that raises the question of who is the Elizabeth Ann is on the 1911 census?

I have got to go out shortly to do my "lady who lunches" bit today but will try to look back later.

Caroline

Caroline Report 17 Jan 2013 13:37

Thanks Mrs Rootie, lunch? What's lunch?? Hope you have something absolutely fattening and lovely.

It's quite intriguing isn't it. As I said, I am coming more and more to thinking that George Galloway stepped into George Reeds shoes when George Reed died. I wonder if they married - am searching just in case for a marriage. I am swayed that perhaps they did not; my thinking is mora and more that he simply added the REED onto his own name making it Galloway-Reed, which would have made life simpler all round: no changing of anyone elses name.

Also, if Elizabeth does die in 1876 it would give more weight to Charlotte being in the workhouse - perhaps he decides he doesn't want responsibility for the children?

I shall soon be applying for my private investigative badge!

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 17 Jan 2013 14:32

Caroline and Roots,
Chris looked at the death for Elizabeth Ann Read for 1876 .
This woman lived at Peace Cottages at the time of her death.,,, same as the 1871 census. It must be her!

I keep thinking that although the lodger was entered as George Galloway on the 1861 census, could he really have been called George Galloway Read?

Perhaps the two Georges were related?
This family is almost ( but not quite) as bad as my own , completely dysfunctional ancestors!

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 17 Jan 2013 14:55

Name: William Edward Read
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Mary Read (Widow)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 8 Jan 1882
Parish: St Pancras Old St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Register
(both Fathers as Dead)


(looking at above, noticed witness, W G Hornbuckle, remembered seeing E Hornbuckle as witness for Charlotte and Edward Caplin)


Marriages Jun 1878 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
HORNBUCKLE William George Pancras 1b 231
Read Emma Pancras 1b 231

Chris :)

Name: Emma Read
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Age: 21
Spouse Name: William George Hornbuckle
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 Jun 1878
Parish: Regent Square
Borough: Camden
Father Name: George Read (Tailor)
Spouse Father Name: John William Hornbuckle (BootMaker)
Register Type: Parish Register
(address for both as, 15, Peace Cottages)