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Caroline Elliott b abt 1833

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Roger

Roger Report 23 Feb 2013 21:51

Vera,
Again another thank you for all the help you have given me.
I have appreciated as well the help Sylvia and Astia have done likewise.
I shall sort through all the information and start to build an Elliott family tree.
In passing Mary Ann Elliott was my grandfather's second wife(He divorced his first) and it was her second husband-he died.He had 2 chn from his first marriage and 5 from the 2nd.My Mother was one from the latter.
As you have suggested if I require any further information I shall do so though this web site.
Best wishes
Roger.

vera2010

vera2010 Report 23 Feb 2013 01:46

Hello Roger

In trying to identify a marriage for George and Caroline, I was looking to find Caroline's maiden name which as I said could be Lancaster although a copy of a birth certificate for one of the children would confirm or otherwise this.

In my little bit of research on your family, I have found some information on George Elliot. on the 1871 census his father is living with him. He is William, a widower and former Engine Fitter born in Doncaster. He is mistranscribed as aged 13 but is in fact 73.

When you get round to looking at researching the Elliots you can always post on this board and ask for some help.

Regards

Vera

Roger

Roger Report 22 Feb 2013 20:31

Vera,
Once again a big thank you.
Sarah Ann and James are sister and brother of my grandmother Mary Ann along with Emily Clara Albert and Amy and maybe a George who sprang out of the woodwork in1891 aged 23 but did not appear 1881 census.
Clara m.Thomas Gorton who was a boarder at their place.In the 1891 census there is no mention of him but Clara's name is there along with her son's-
Sanford aged 7
Sarah b.Stratford James b. Manchester Emily b.Lambeth.They certainly moved around.
My major problem is that I am along with a cousin who is in full time care the last of the first cousins.I have never met an Elliott to talk with.My Mother likewise did not discuss with me that side of the family.Her mother Mary Ann died aged 47
and her Father aged 63 and she along with another sister and a brother became orphans.I have a letter sent to a late cousin from a granddaughter of Sarah's.
I tried to meet her when I was in England a few years ago but she was out even though I had left messages i would be calling.
The Elliotts are an interesting family.I have a sublime hope that somewhere someone of Elliott descent has grown a familytree!!
Maybe brothers did marry sisters.
Kind regards
Roger.

vera2010

vera2010 Report 22 Feb 2013 06:04

Something for you to ponder on.

On the 1861 census there is George Elliott, Caroline, Sarah Ann and James living at the time in Manchester. Also with them a nephew and niece, Emma Elliott b 1849 in Essex and William Elliott born 1850 in Essex.

Emma and William return to London. On William's marriage cert it states that he is an Engineer, his father is named as Charles and deceased. One of the witnesse at the wedding is a George Elliott. The wedding is held at St Barnabas, South Lambeth.
1875.

A tree on Ancestry links Emma Eliza to a Charles Elliott and Jane Lancaster. There is a marriage with their both names on the same page for West Ham, Essex in 1848.
There is also a marriage with George Elliott and Caroline Lancaster on the same page in 1855 at West Ham, Essex.

I have unfortunately not been able to place Charles and George together because of the age gap nor Jane and Caroline but it is possile that the two brothers married two sisters.

Vera

Roger

Roger Report 21 Feb 2013 23:06

Vera,
Thank you

Kind regards
Roger.

vera2010

vera2010 Report 21 Feb 2013 22:19

So not your Caroline at all in 1861. Never mind we did discover that the enumerator had very poor handwriting. Could be a link as you say. .

Regards

Vera

Roger

Roger Report 21 Feb 2013 21:21

Vera,
Thank you once again for the additional information you have sent to me re Caroline.
I note in 1871 her age was shown as 63.In 1881 it was 75.

I have been sorting through a pile of forgotten papers and have come across
a photo copy of the original 1881 census form as filled in by her which gives her age as 42 with a list of family members and boarders liviing at her address.The eldest child was a Sarah aged 24 which would suggest she was m. at about 18?

Maybe there was another Caroline from an earlier date who was related?

I was interested to note that in earlier information Astra sent to me the Caroline
there her mother was Mary Ann Morton and my grandmother was Mary Ann Elliott.
Could be of some significance.

I have not as yet checked the 1841 census which may bring up more useful information.

Kind regards
Roger.

vera2010

vera2010 Report 21 Feb 2013 09:13

This could be Caroline linked to the 1861 census.

1871 England Census
about Caroline Elliot Name: Caroline Elliot
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1808
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington First
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 216
Piece: 669
Folio: 41
Page Number: 35
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah A Chitty 46
Chas Rogers 18
Helma Jones 70
Caroline Elliot 63

1881 England Census
about Caroline Elliott Name: Caroline Elliott
Age: 75
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Widow
Gender: Female
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 11 Wynyard Terrace
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Formily Laundress

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 598
Folio: 35
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Elliott 75

Vera






Roger

Roger Report 21 Feb 2013 01:41

Vera,
You have posed a difficult question which I shall try to answer from the information I have in front of me.

1881 Caroline was 42 which would give her a birth year abt 1839. ref 1981 census.
1891 She was 54!! which would give her birth year abt 1837!! ref 1891 census.

The 1861 census has a Caroline with all the bells and whistles e.g m.to Charles Elliott shows her to be 33 which would give a birth year as abt 1828.

So the plot thickens!!

Then to add more cofusion from another source she was born in1809 and m. to Charles and residing in Lambeth..The latter was born in 1811

The joys of trying to sort out fact from fiction,

Thank you once again and all those who have been so helpful.

Kind regards
Roger.

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 21 Feb 2013 00:36

Vera ...............

I wasn't sure about Caroline's age. I thought it could have been either 33 or 53!!



I do wish these old enumerators would have written more clearly :-D :-D :-D :-D

vera2010

vera2010 Report 20 Feb 2013 23:46

I would say on the 1861 Charles is aged 50 ie b 1811 and Caroline aged 53 born 1808.

Roger where did you get the information from that recorded Caroline as being born 1833?

Vera

vera2010

vera2010 Report 20 Feb 2013 23:37

I'm confused. If the age of Caroline on the 1861 census is correct, then why is it a different age for the 1841 and 1851. Unless of course the Caroline on the 1861 is a different Caroline.

I have looked at the 1861 census again Sylvia. Not sure what to think. There are definite 3's and 5's on the sheet. Will look again with my magnifyer.

Vera

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Feb 2013 19:34

PM received


according to Roger ..................

the age of Caroline is correct on the 1861 Census ....... therefore the younger Charles was not her son.


It must have been a second marriage for Charles Sr


A birth certificate for any child of Caroline's would show her maiden name, if a marriage cannot be found between 1841 and 1861.




sylvia

Astra

Astra Report 20 Feb 2013 07:55

PM received

Roger

Roger Report 20 Feb 2013 07:15

VERA,
Thank you so much for your reply.

Unfortunately I do not have a Family Tree for this branch of the family.
I know so little about Caroline's husband Charles.I have her own family names and their ages at 1881 and where she was living,etc and some additional information from the 1891 census.I am somewhat floundering because unlike
with my other family tree where I have been given so much help.
According to the 1881 census she was shown as a widow.The Charles detail you have sent to me are those of his son who does not appear in the 1881 census but does so 1891. There seems to have been toing and froing with this family because my Grandmother who was an Elliott does not appear in either1881-1891.Yes Caroline's age is correct according to other information I have.Just a thought maybe the son had the same names as his father,
As I collect more information hopefully I shall be able to develop an Elliott family tree.

Thank you once again
Kind regards
Roger.

Thank you once again

Astra

Astra Report 20 Feb 2013 06:52

The 1851 makes everything a little clearer
1851 census transcription details for: 14, Mansion House Street, St Marys Lambeth, Lambeth


National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 1573
Folio: 39
Page: 21
Reg. District: Lambeth
Sub District: Kennington Ist
Parish: St Marys Lambeth
Enum. District: 2
Ecclesiastical District: St Marks Kennington
City/Municipal Borough: Lambeth
Address: 14, Mansion House Street, St Marys Lambeth, Lambeth
County: Surrey
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
ELLIOTT, Charles Head Married M 40 1811 House Decorator
Lambeth, Surrey
ELLIOTT, Caroline Wife Married F 42 1809
Lambeth, Surrey
ELLIOTT, Charles Son Unmarried M 10 1841
Lambeth, Surrey
SHONER, Sarah Lodger Widow F 72 1779 Annuitant
Lambeth, Surrey
CASTELL, John Lodger Married M 40 1811 Traveller
Northampton
CASTELL, Edward Son M 2 1849
Lambeth, Surrey
CASTELL, Eliza Daughter F 0 (3 MOS) 1851
Lambeth, Surrey
THOMSON, Anthony Lodger Unmarried M 25 1826 Decorator
Blackheath, Kent

and a possible marriage

groom's name: Charles Elliott
groom's birth date:
groom's birthplace:
groom's age:
bride's name: Caroline Morton
bride's birth date:
bride's birthplace:
bride's age:
marriage date: 18 Nov 1834
marriage place: Saint Mary,Newington,Surrey,England
groom's father's name:
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name:
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status:
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status:
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M05563-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 307696, 307697, 307698, 307699, 307700, 307701, 307702, 307703
reference number:

Possible baptism for Caroline assuming that she hadn't been previously married

name Caroline Morton
gender Female
baptism/christening date 07 Sep 1808
baptism/christening place St Marys, Lambeth, Surrey, England
birth date
birthplace
death date
name note
race
father's name Richard Morton
father's birthplace
father's age
mother's name Mary Ann Morton
mother's birthplace
mother's age
indexing project (batch) number C00964-5
system origin England-ODM
source film number 254604

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Feb 2013 05:41

Vera ..................

did you think that Charles Sr's age on the image of the 1861 might be 50? I wondered about that.

But Caroline's seemed to be OK as 33




sylvia

vera2010

vera2010 Report 20 Feb 2013 04:11

Have just been looking at that Sylvia. 1841 and 1851 has Caroline and Charles b 1809 and 1811. Wonder if that is enumerator error on 1861as their ages do look correct on image.

Can't find a marriage for them prior to Charles' birth in 1840 but think this might be his birth

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Charles George Elliott Name: Charles George Elliott
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1840
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 4
Page: 200 (click to see others on page)

and marriage London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Charles George Elliott Name: Charles George Elliott
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Age: 34
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Parker
Spouse Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Feb 1875
Parish: Lambeth St Mary
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: Charles Elliott - Home Decorator deceased
Spouse Father Name: John Parker
Register Type: Parish Register

Vera

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 20 Feb 2013 03:50

for reference purpose ONLY ................ so we have an idea of who we're looking for

Is this your Caroline???


1861 Census

Name: Caroline Elliott
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles Elliott
Gender: Female
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington First

Charles Elliott 30 b.ca 1831, Lambeth, House Decorator
Caroline Elliott 33
Charles Elliott 20 b.ca 1841, Lambeth, Son, Clerk

Address:- 14 Mansion House Street


There is something really strange about that census record .................. If Charles b. ca 1841 really is their son, then his father was 10 and his mother 13 when he was born :-)


Was Charles Sr much older than Caroline?????





sylvia

Roger

Roger Report 20 Feb 2013 01:19

Caroline was living in the Lambeth Borough.m to Charles Elliott.I have quite a lot of information about her except for her maiden name and those of her parents.She was my ggt grandmother. Your help would be great.

Roger.