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Flip- I think the 1911 census of Alice is quite interesting. The grandchild born in Portsmouth 1901 would appear to be the son of John as he seems to be the only one of Alice's children in that area. So I have this theory- please tell me if it's way off!

I don't think John Granville is the child of Mary/ Edith Pike- she didn't marry John Kershaw until 1904, so a birth in 1901 should have also been listed under Pike (I don't see one). However it's possible that John married in 1899:

Marriages Jun 1899

Kershaw John Portsea 2b 1139
Thomas Alice Portsea 2b 1139

but then his wife died in 1902:

Alice Kershaw
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Registration Year: 1902
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 28
Registration district: Portsmouth
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2b
Page: 345

John would then be free to marry again in 1904 to Miss Pike.

Have been pottering around trying to find Mary Ann on earlier census. I'm assuming that as she married as Mary, and it's got Mary Ann on her death then that is the most likely name she was originally. Though why she changed to Edith is beyond me...

Likely contender in 1891, she isn't with this family in 1901:

Mary Ann Pike
Age:16
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1875
Relation:Daughter
Father's Name:Henry Pike
Mother's name:Mary Ann Pike
Gender:Female
Where born:Henley on Thames, London, England
Civil Parish:Portsea
Ecclesiastical parish:Milton St James
County/Island:Hampshire
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Portsea Island
Sub-registration district:Landport
ED, institution, or vessel:69
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:877
Folio:10
Page Number:13
Household Members:NameAge

Henry Pike 36
Mary Ann Pike 39
Mary Ann Pike 16
Alice E Pike 15
Henry George W Pike 13
Edith Annie Pike 10
Nellie Pike 6
Annie Pike 3
Charles Arthur Pike 2

I think this is her in 1901, most of the heads of households on the page are navy officers:

Annie Pike
Age:24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation to Head:Servant
Gender:Female
Birth Place:Henley on Thames
Civil Parish:Portsmouth
Ecclesiastical parish:St John
County/Island:Hampshire
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Portsmouth
Sub-registration district:Portsea and Landport
ED, institution, or vessel:49
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:999
Folio:140
Page Number:9
Household schedule number:21
Household Members:NameAge

Mark E P Frost 41
Alice C M Frost 37
Vernon M P Frost 11
Dorothy B P Frost 8
Emma Frost 73
Mary Eliza M Stapley 23
Annie Pike 24

Something went wrong with my last post - he was registered in the June quarter of 1901. I don't think it's Granville's son, as he was in Littleborough in 1901.

On the military record it does say son (in brackets) giving this same address.....I wonder if he's Edith/Mary Ann's son??? According to his death in Rochdale 1979 his dob was 28/5/1901.

Vicky, Thanks for sharing the military image for John Kershaw, it's really interesting. I found his family in Littleborough, at the address given - his mother Alice was a widow by 1901, but his father from earlier census was Joseph. I think you may find this interesting, there is a grandson on the 1911 census:

Alice Kershaw
Age in 1911:65
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1846
Relation to Head:Wife
Gender:Female
Birth Place:Littleborough, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Littleborough
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England
Street address:3 Box Street Littleborough Nr Manchester
Marital Status:Widowed
Registration district:Rochdale
Registration District Number:470
Sub-registration district:Littleborough
ED, institution, or vessel:8
Piece:24692
Household Members:NameAge

Alice Kershaw 65
Annie Alma Kershaw 26
Granville Kershaw 35
John Granville Kershaw 9 << Born Portsmouth

Births: 1901
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KERSHAW John Granville Portsmouth 2b469

I think the penny has just dropped! Emma had her son Thomas aged 19 years and no husband on the certificate because she was not married. So perhaps Thomas's father is Arthur Rackman as stated grooms father. Later, I know that Emma went on to marry James Frederick high! :-D

Arthur Rackham it says...(perhaps he was told name of his Father?, not concrete though!)

Chris :)

(another Marriage for Grandfather!)

County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 219
MarriageDate 24 Apr 1889
GroomForename Thomas
GroomSurname FRANCIS
GroomAge 66
GroomParish
GroomCondition Widower
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode Earsham
BrideForename Jemima
BrideSurname BANHAM
BrideAge 64
BrideParish
BrideCondition Widow
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename William
GroomFatherSurname FRANCIS
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename John
BrideFatherSurname KEMP
BrideFatherOccupation Labourer
WitnessOneForename Benjamin
WitnessOneSurname BEDWELL
WitnessTwoForename Caroline
WitnessTwoSurname SAUNDERS
Notes Banns. Bride & Groom & witness 1 sign with mark. Father of Groom - William Francis (deceased).


Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries .
The Ipswich Journal (Ipswich, England), Saturday, March 10, 1883

Death
Francis 21st - at Earsham, Elizabeth Francis, wife of Thomas Francis, aged 60.


Deaths Mar 1895 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Francis Thomas 76 Depwade 4b 172


Deaths Mar 1892 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Francis Jemima 67 Depwade 4b 226

(possibles)

May I ask am I reading this correct that Thomas Francis father is Arthur Rackman? as it says the grooms father. Different surnames or have I got it incorrect?

County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 241
MarriageDate * Apr 1895
GroomForename Thomas
GroomSurname FRANCIS
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Able Seaman "Resolution
GroomAbode Earsham
BrideForename Minna
BrideSurname FREAKES
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename Arthur
GroomFatherSurname RACKHAM
GroomFatherOccupation Farmer
BrideFatherForename Abraham
BrideFatherSurname FREAKES
BrideFatherOccupation Gardener
WitnessOneForename Abraham
WitnessOneSurname FREAKES
WitnessTwoForename Elizabeth
WitnessTwoSurname FREAKES
Notes Banns.

I have unloaded the military record and yes John is still in the Marines in 1914 even present 1919. It also states his mother as Alice Kershaw as next of kin.
John's DOB 17/04/1877. He started at Eastney in Portsmouth which is ironic as I am on the out skirts of Portsmouth but use to live in Eastney right next to the barracks for years.

Omg! Thank you al, l this is totally amazing as I couldn't find all this on my own !
It will take me a while to digest all this new information and add it to my tree.

Also I know you mentioned about Mina, well I looked at the records again and I can explain that Minnie Freakes born 1895 who married TF. They had two daughters and one was called Minna Mery Francis born 1905. So they were both Minnie, Minna, ??

I will upload the record for John Kershaw which will be hopefully interesting. It kind of feels like the puzzle is slowly unwrapping. ;-) I will let you all know what I find.

County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 241
MarriageDate * Apr 1895
GroomForename Thomas
GroomSurname FRANCIS
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Able Seaman "Resolution
GroomAbode Earsham
BrideForename Minna
BrideSurname FREAKES
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename Arthur
GroomFatherSurname RACKHAM
GroomFatherOccupation Farmer
BrideFatherForename Abraham
BrideFatherSurname FREAKES
BrideFatherOccupation Gardener
WitnessOneForename Abraham
WitnessOneSurname FREAKES
WitnessTwoForename Elizabeth
WitnessTwoSurname FREAKES
Notes Banns.


County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 163
MarriageDate 17 Oct 1874
GroomForename James Frederick
GroomSurname HIGH
GroomAge 21
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Wheelwright
GroomAbode Earsham
BrideForename Emma
BrideSurname FRANCIS
BrideAge 24
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename James
GroomFatherSurname HIGH
GroomFatherOccupation Wheelwright
BrideFatherForename Thomas
BrideFatherSurname FRANCIS
BrideFatherOccupation Labourer
WitnessOneForename Thomas
WitnessOneSurname FRANCIS
WitnessTwoForename Mary Ann
WitnessTwoSurname HIGH
Notes Banns. Witness 1 signs with mark. Bride signs Emma Frances.


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 785
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 03 Aug 1851
Forename Emma
Sex F
FatherForename Thomas
MotherForename Susanna
FatherSurname FRANCIS
MotherSurname
Abode Earsham
FatherOccupation Labourer


County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 20
MarriageDate 28 Nov 1842
GroomForename Thomas
GroomSurname FRANCIS
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode Earsham
BrideForename Susanna
BrideSurname ALEXANDER
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename William
GroomFatherSurname FRANCIS
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename Richard
BrideFatherSurname ALEXANDER
BrideFatherOccupation Labourer
WitnessOneForename John
WitnessOneSurname SPENTON
WitnessTwoForename Phoebe
WitnessTwoSurname SPENTON
Notes Banns. Bride & Groom & both witnesses sign with mark.


Burial
County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 541
BurialDate 01 Feb 1852
Forename Susanna
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname FRANCIS
Age 29
Abode Earsham


County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 64
MarriageDate 03 Dec 1853
GroomForename Thomas
GroomSurname FRANCIS
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Widower
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode Earsham
BrideForename Elizabeth
BrideSurname HAYLET
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename William
GroomFatherSurname FRANCIS
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename Robert
BrideFatherSurname HAYLET
BrideFatherOccupation Labourer
WitnessOneForename Mary
WitnessOneSurname LEGOOD
WitnessTwoForename William
WitnessTwoSurname LEGOOD
Notes Banns. Bride & Groom & both witnesses sign with mark.

Chris :)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

edits (also below, Emma!)

Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints Tr
RegisterNumber 417
DateOfBirth 03 Jun 1873
BaptismDate 22 Jun 1877
Forename Eliza Jane
FatherForename
MotherForename Emma
FatherSurname
MotherSurname FRANCIS
Abode Bungay
FatherOccupation Servant


County Norfolk
Place Earsham
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 233
MarriageDate 02 Oct 1892
GroomForename John
GroomSurname GREENMORE
GroomAge 21
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Bricklayer
GroomAbode Bungay
BrideForename Eliza
BrideSurname FRANCES
BrideAge 19
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation Domestic Servant
BrideAbode Earsham
GroomFatherForename John
GroomFatherSurname GREENMORE
GroomFatherOccupation Drover
BrideFatherForename James
BrideFatherSurname HIGH
BrideFatherOccupation Wheelwright
WitnessOneForename Minna
WitnessOneSurname FREAKES
WitnessTwoForename Thomas
WitnessTwoSurname FRANCES
Notes Banns. Bride & witness 2 sign with mark. Father of Groom - John Greenmore (deceased).

Sorry, our posts crossed, I'll have to find it again - do you have ancestry as that's where I found it? If you don't let me know & Ill download and PM you the image.

Check your messages, 1871 & 1881 census images sent.

That's right, Emma is his mother - no father named and she was still single on the 1871 census I posted. Thomas an Elizabeth are her parents.

Thomas was still with his grandparents in 1881, but no Emma - I think she got married c1874 (but can't find my note on it at the moment).

For the military record, if you click on the link already posted you can order a download for around £3 - probably worth it as I think it might prove John Kershaw was still alive when Edith/Mary Ann gave birth in 1913.

Hello me again!,

I tried to complete the electrol role as you have sucessfully done above but failed. Please can you tell me how you managed it and what I need to select and place in the boxes so i can locate and print it off for my scrap book.

Thank you,

Vicky.

Brilliant - Thank you. So does this mean that Thomas and Elizabeth are the parents of Emma who has her son Thomas aged 2? no father named.

Have you noticed that the earlier spelling of Frances is now todate as Francis.

Regarding Segeant John Kershaw he did marry in 1904 which makes sense. I will look into paying for the record so we can discover more.

Thank you. :-D

It's Earsham, Norfolk - as on 1901/11 census, this is him with mother & grandparents:

Thomas Frances
Age:2
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1869
Relation:Grandson
Mother's name:Emma Frances
Gender:Male
Where born:Earsham, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish:Earsham
Town:Earsham
County/Island:Norfolk
Country:England
Registration district:Depwade
Sub-registration district:Harleston
ED, institution, or vessel:4
Household schedule number:63
Piece:1833
Folio:52
Page Number:13
Household Members:NameAge

Thomas Frances 50
Elizabeth Frances 50
Emma Frances 21
Thomas Frances 2
Thomas Buggs 61
Mary Godfrey 80

Maybe? But I don't know if the correct one or what information would be on the record....

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7757180

From what I can see on the distorted image (without buying it) he was a seargent, and appears to serve till 1918. He was granted leave in April 1904 - wonder if that is when they married. Not sure but birth place is ......chester, could be Manchester.

Hello All,

Guess what came in the post today?!! Yes Edith's death certificate. It States -
Edith Kershaw otherwise Mary Ann Kershaw female 77 years, widow of John Kershaw a sergeant Royal marines Artillery. Signature, description and residence of informant F.T Francis Son, 17th November 1952.

So I now wonder if John died leaving Edith a widow and she then met Thomas also a widow and they then had Thomas junior?

Has anyone got access to military records at all?

How can I find out more, any ideas?

Also today, the birth certificate came for Thomas Francis senior he was born 11th November 1868 no name listed for father but mother as Emma Francis Earshaw. or Earshire? (difficult to read) Depwade, Norfolk.

Any help would be gratefully welcome - Thank you, Vicky x ;-)

Interesting you call her Mina -she was Minna May on the census - although I only found her later as Mina. Maybe something from memory? Look forward to the death cert.

Hmm yes its all very interesting and exciting. As said Thomas junior would never discuss his past life - how sad. We think that Mina Francis his half sister helped bring him up as there was no mention of a mother or father.

I shall let you both know once the death record comes back.

You can call yourself anything you want - so long as it is not for fraudulent purposes. So like Helen says, maybe she was hiding from her first husband John Kershaw - and got together with Thomas Francis. Obvioulsy they couldn't get married legimately as she was still married (although some do bigamously!)

See what the death cert brings.......