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oooooh Janey


that sounds really promising!



s

Calling the fan club. ;)

Remember ... hahaha ... my wildest theory here?

Gr-Grf Ernest always said he was the son of a black sheep younger brother of a Viscount Monck. This was a handy tale to go with his name in Canada, because the Viscount who would be the one in question was Governor General of Canada, handpicked by Queen Vicky to preside over Confederation in 1867, and quite well thought of over here.

So, over time, I desultorily dug around in the Viscounts Monck. Eventually I discovered he did have a younger brother, and that he didn't marry and was killed at Alma.

This is him in 1851:

Name: William Monck (Captain)
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Where born: Tamplamore, Tipperary, Ireland (Templemore)
Civil parish: Portsmouth

http://thepeerage.com/p3882.htm

Captain William Monck
M, #38820, b. 28 February 1823, d. 20 September
Captain William Monck was born on 28 February 1823. He was the son of Charles Joseph Kelly Monck, 3rd Viscount Monck and Bridget Willington. He died on 20 September 1854 at age 31, killed in action.
Captain William Monck fought in the Battle of Alma on 20 September 1854.

He would have been sent out only very shortly before his death; I forget the dates just now, but only a short time.

Ada (the Actress) Lennox Monck Hill was born in Q4 1854, in Cornwall.

In 1861 she and her mother and sibs were in Plymouth, apparently estranged from the husband/father Francis Hill. (By 1857, he shows up on a mining lease option, recorded as living in Middlesex, goes bankrupt in the late 1860s, and by 1871 has a new kid, whose mother he then marries.)

The question: was Sarah Emma Bond Hill (? whether she ever married Hill) the English captain's woman? She was born in 1819, a smidge older, a woman with kids, I dunno.

Anyhow ...

I've had some PMs this week inquiring about the Moncks in my tree, from someone I know here through our mutual distaste for the bigotry on the boards. Were mine descended from General George Monck? (He's the one who restored the monarchy.) Well, I don't think anyone is descended from him, actually, although there are some yanks who claim to be.

And why did she ask? Well her friend X is a Monck connected with that line. And next thing I know, I find he's ... well, I won't say specifically ... but let me just say:

I want his DNA!

Yes, Capt Monck is a relation of his.

I hadn't ever wanted to go begging blue blood and spit from one of the nobility, and here one has fallen into my lap. ;)

My GR PM buddy is exchanging our email addresses ...

I have been right about absolutely everything I set my mind to in this bunch. I fear I am about to run out my luck. ;)

I don't think there will be any rushing unfortunately, Rose has seen a thread which didn't sound very encouraging about the temporary record office in the museum. It should have have opened a while back...if you don't mind waiting.....I'll keep this on file.

I lose threads very easily. I post too much rubbish lol. If you pm me with a link to your thread(s) I should be able to track it back more easily.

Well that is too good an offer to pass up. ;)

That Arthur Cheshire birth there would be a start, and I'll see whether I can pin down any of the other kids' births (wanna know what the mother's full name is). I haven't ordered a birth certificate in all these years yet, so we won't need to be rushing.

Of course this thread will now show up in "your threads" permanently, SRS -- but it isn't exactly an active one, it gets something added and just sinks again, so you can ignore it. ;)

Hello JC,

Must admit I haven't read through any of this except for the last post and haven't got the inclination tonight. Sorry! Just don't feel up to anything too stretching.

However, i noticed that you had a link to Liverpool on your last post. I'm not very reliable and don't know if the temporary records office is even open at the moment and what they're holding at the moment but let me know if you need me to look for any records in Liverpool and I will see what I can do.

If you do, it will probably best to send me a pm as I'll have half a chance of finding it again.

But speaking of Mary Emma Hill and John Cheshire - yay! I should have got the birth cert for a couple of kids in their household 1871-81-91 long ago, but never did, and now I find an answer at pilot.familysearch.

1881 for example:

John R. Cheshire 38
Emma Cheshire 38
Eliza Cheshire 17
Chas. R. Cheshire 16
Alfred Cheshire 15
Arthur Cheshire 13
Edward Cheshire 12
Amy Cheshire 9
Walter Cheshire 8

Well, I find Arthur anyway: 12 Sept 1867, St Peter's, Liverpool, parents John Cheshire and Emma. Which doesn't answer the question of whether they were all Emma's kids ... since I've never found a marriage ...

Very very old one, that is, long before what is now known was known! ;) [edit - in ref to a link in the deleted post above - thanks, Robert]

Actually I'd be grateful if you'd delete that link for me, as the info in it isn't of any use and in fact is misleading and just muddies the waters, since I've since found the right answers to numerous of those questions (e.g. who Mary Emma Hill really married -- John Cheshire) and that link just contains old discounted stuff for the most part.

Trust me on this (as in my Richard Barnard and Reuben Cooper threads) -- *anything* you find on the net about these people comes from me, one way or another, and anything that isn't in this thread here is either garbled info that originally came from me or old efforts since corrected!


Yeah, you and me both, Ozi! So somewhere, there's a death record for a William Hill who lied about his age and, as far as I can tell, was not in touch with any family at the time ...

No luck at all, Janey. Thought I found a couple of possibles then found them elsewhere in 1881.

Ozi

Ancestry's moronic system. That is the married surname of eldest sister Emma. I added it years ago. That was before you could select which household members to apply names to (that only started a few weeks ago). So all over Ancestry, I have ancestors with extra surnames that belong to their daughters or sisters ... I'm going to get around to trashing and replacing them all eventually!

Why does it also have a correction to William Cheshire on the 1861 census? Where does that come from?


Ozi

Good possibilities -- also, other family (Ernest himself with mother Emma, and sister Ada Lennox Monck Hill/Monck Coke, with husband Charles Coke/McCock -- Ada was in Chester reg dist) were in Cheshire in 81.


I was hoping to find that next brother Jacob James Hill 1844 had a kid between the 1871 census and his death late 1872 (or in the months following),

Deaths Dec 1872
HILL James 26 Strand 1b 320

but no such luck so far ...

??????

Births Mar 1875
Edge Hannah Chester 8a 421
Births Mar 1876
Edge Hannah Manchester 8d 209

Ah yes, they would be.

If anybody can spot him in 1871 or after 1881 ...


Births Mar 1845
HILL William Stephen Stoke Damerel 9 480


1861

Name: William Hill
[William Stephen Hill]
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1846
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Sarah
Where born: Devonport, Devon, England
Civil parish: St Andrew
County/Island: Devon

Looks like the great-rellies are on the Edge side.

1881 England Census
Name: James Banning
Age: 56
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Alice
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoghton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Bramhall
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street Address: Station St

Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Cashier & Sectary To Club

Registration district: Stockport
Sub-registration district: Hazelgrove
Household Members:
Name Age
James Banning 56
Alice Banning 47
Susannah Edge 23 - niece; teacher of music
Anne Booth 14


Marriages Sep 1868
Banning James Barton On Irwell 8c 608
Edge Alice Susannah H Barton 8c 608
Jackson Mary Barton 8c 608
Spencer John Barton 8c 608

Somebody here at GR has Harriet Edge 1859 Salford in her tree!

I may yet collect one descendant for each of those Hill siblings. ;)

And somebody else has Hannah Hill 1875 Salford!

Thanks guys! (I did have the Hill-Edge marriage right at the beginning. ;) )

More to dig around at now.

Yes, I do so well at a search engine,I do. Eventually. ;)

Maybe Harriet was also telling tales about her age.

Name: Frances Alice Hannah Edge
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 19 Mar 1874
Baptism/Christening Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: James Gibson Edge
Mother's Name: Harriet Edge
Reference Number: 196
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Also James Gibson Edge Jr, 04 Aug 1875.

But the marriage would be:

Marriages Sep 1871
EDGE James Gibson Sheffield 9c 547
Goodall Harriett Sheffield 9c 547

and that's just stretching the ages a bit much ...

Well, so much for more kids:

Deaths Sep 1883
HILL Harriet Lea 24 Salford 8d 90

... No luck with quick searches for various more stuff in GRO indexes and censuses so far, but that's early days.

A possible ...
Name: William Hill
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Year of Registration: 1911
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 66
District: Salford
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 130

Marriages Jun 1878 (>99%)
BENNEY Elizabeth Manchester 8d 394
EDGE Harriet Lea Manchester 8d 394
HILL William Stephen H H Manchester 8d 394
ROBERTSHAW John William Manchester 8d 394


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1878
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HILL William S H EDGE Harriet L Manchester, Miles Platting, St. John the Evangelist Manchester 94/1/282

I believe she's Harriet's. Otherwise she'd have a high-falutin' name!


Is this her Janey?
1891 England Census
Name: Hannah Hill
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation: Grand or Great Niece (Great Niece)
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Hale
Ecclesiastical parish: Altrincham St John
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street Address: Broomfield Rd

Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Altrincham
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ramming 66 - Secretary; Houghton, Lancs
Alice Ramming 57 - Strangeways, Lancs
Hannah Hill 15

JC - here's another extract of your record:

Baptism: 25 May 1881 St Clement, Salford, Lancashire, England
Ernest Augustus Hore Hill - Child of William Stephen Hore Hill & Harriet
Born: 22 Apr 1881
Abode: 11 Sarah Street
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: C.V. Merriman
Register: Baptisms 1877 - 1882, Page 104, Entry 828
Source: LDS Film 1786422

from - http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html