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The marriage for those births:


Richard Whitehead
Spouse: Betty Walsh
Marriage: 20 JAN 1831 Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Batch No.: M007085


Nope. They're in Blackburn in 1841.

Richard Whitehead 30
Betty Whitehead 35
James Whitehead 8
Jane Whitehead 5
Margaret Whitehead 3
Thomas Whitehead 1
William Whitehead 7

Ruling OUT is important!!

Could Whitehead have been Betty's first married name?

And William another son of that marriage?

And she then married / hooked up with Henry Greenwood and moved to Oldham?


WILLIAM WHITEHEAD
Birth: 16 JAN 1834
Christening: 24 FEB 1834 Ebenezer Primitive Methodist, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Father: RICHD. WHITEHEAD
Mother: BETTY WALSH
Batch No.: C086351


JAMES WHITEHEAD
Birth: 2 AUG 1831
Christening: 18 SEP 1832 Ebenezer Primitive Methodist, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Father: RICHARD WHITEHEAD
Mother: ELIZABETH WELSH
Batch No.: C086351


Could the 1836 christening of William Greenwood, son of Henry Greenwood and Betty --

03 JUL 1836 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England

have been a rechristening??

Too old ...



JAMES WHITEHEAD
Christening: 21 MAR 1825 Burnley, Lancashire, England
Mother: BETTY WHITEHEAD
Batch No.: P005202

But I don't see him in 1851.

K

I think you found this 1851 record before.

But how did a Cotton Piecer in 1851 in Ashton become a boilermaker in Bilston in 1861.

Yes! Check out the new records, for sure.

Also ask them what they think about him being in the military / navy in 1851, whether there's any way of checking that out (Kew, I guess), and whether anyone has any ideas about how he would have learned his trade.

1851


Name: James Whitehead
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Ashton ??, Lancashire, England
(oh, it says Ashton under Lyne)

Civil Parish: Newton
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Newton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

>> Occupation: Cotton Piecer

Registration district: Manchester
Sub registration district: Newton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2f
Household schedule number: 133

William Bottomley 20
James Cooeley 26
Allen Denerley 47
Ann Fish Denerley 30
Elizabeth Denerley 9
Hugh Denerley 5
Sarah Denerley 46
William Denerley 21
Daniel Price 19
John Price 45
William Ridge 21
James Whitehead 20


Looks very much like "our" 1841 James Greenwood in the Whitehead household in Oldham.

Oh Ok Kath.

So Susey Thwaite is not our married Susanah Whitehead.

Who was our Susannah's husband?

On the 27th Sept. the manchester and lancashire family history society are having a open day. I will go to see if I can find James Greenwood on the 1851 Census. They have transcribed a water damaged section of the census that includes Oldham.

I will get the two Hannah Greenwoods birth certs.


Are we any closer to cracking this one?

Is little James living with the Whiteheads in 1841 mine?

Manningham is where the Whitehead Mill was, no? That's what google told me, so that's where I looked.

I think that Greetland connection I thought was a possible really isn't, though. The Whiteheads in Oldham seem to be a different batch altogether.

Manningham's between Bradford and Leeds to far from Greetland.

No way of linking him to our James in 1841 or 61,71 or 81 though.

In fact would give me 4 different birthplace for James.

Baildon is notrh of Bradford, he must have really been forgetful to say Bolton and Yorkshire in later census.

John Whitehead husband of Suzey isn't likely our Whiteheads -- may be parents of that batch of children born in Greetland, in the IGI, but these really don't seem to be the Whiteheads in Oldham from before 1841.

So I wouldn't be looking too hard for a connection to the Whitehead Mill.


Edit -- does F's tree not have death dates for them?

Ah, I thought you meant we'd had a James aged 20 working in the mill ...

How about this one?


Name: James Greenwood
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Baildon, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Manningham -- rigiht place??
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Occupation: P.L. Weaver Worsted

Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Horton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2l
Household schedule number: 107

James Greenwood 18
William Long 55 - Woolcomber
Mary Long 56
Abram Long 14 - Cotton Spinner
Harriet Long 30 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)
James Long 26 - Wool Comber
John Long 22 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)
Sarah Ann Long 16 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)

What's this now? --

"The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill."


John Whitehead husband of Suzey was the owner of a Woollen Mill (according to Francis Toit)

Can you find John Whitehead on the 1841 or 51.

If he was dead by 1841, where did young James get the education and experience to be a boilermaker by 1861 a hundred miles from Oldham in Bilston.

It's volume 20 page 39. Perfectly legible. The other one is correct, volume 20 page 107.

I hesitate to submit a correction to FreeBMD because I may already have done it, and they get extremely snappish if you don't follow their rules. Kinda like dealing with the Soup Nazi.

(or like dealing with me. ;) -- that explanation for the PMs did occur to me!)

What's this now? --

"The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill."


There are two possibilities for deaths for Henry Whitehead in the GRO. He had to have died after 1837, to be the father of Hannah.


Deaths Mar 1839
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 107
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 3[79]


Unfortunately the death certificate would likely not give any info to confirm.

Oh, all right. I'll check that illegible page number at Ancestry (which has much clearer images than FreeBMD).

Since we can find no record on line of the Betty Whitehead - Henry Greenwood marriage, I would still suggest getting Hannah's birth cert -- again, one of these two:


Births Jun 1838
Greenwood Hannah Ashton & c 20 136

Births Dec 1838
GREENWOOD Hannah Ashton 20 81


It will confirm that her father really was *Henry* Greenwood (the name on William's marriage certificate not being proof).

---------

Adding on edit for reminder -- from the IGI, submitted record:

WILLIAM GREENWOOD
Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: HENRY GREENWOOD
Mother: BETTY

---------

This still leaves the possibility that James was born before that marriage, adopted his stepfather's surname, but invented a father with his stepfather's surname and his real father's given name when he married. This was not at all uncommon for children born outside marriage who used a stepfather's surname from childhood onward but knew something about their real father.

K

I have been convinced for months of your Whitehead-Greenwood theory / connection.

Susannah Whitehead wasn't born in Lancashire and is likely to be from Greetland.

Hannah and William's father was Henry.

Maybe James father was Henry but somehow he got called Richard on his marriage cert.

Maybe he died when James was very young and Richard, Henry's brother was his father in James eyes.

I will try and find Henry and Richard death cert on IGI.


If his grandfather John Whitehead was a wool cloth manufacturer it might explain how he became a Boilermaker.

The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill.

Because I have zero Lancashire roots of my own, I've never paid a lot of attention to this site:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

But look what I just found:

1838
GREENWOOD Hannah
Oldham Above Town
Oldham
mother WHITEHEAD
OAT/1/210


That's the Hannah, daughter of Betty Greenwood, sister of William, in 1841:

Name: Hannah Greenwood
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Gender: Female
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub registration district: Crompton

Betty Greenwood 30
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5
Mary Whitehead 35
James Whitehead 40
John Whitehead 40

The one whose father was Henry, from William's marriage cert, if I'm recalling correctly.

So that confirms that bit of the story -- we still have no idea whether it has anything to do with you, but it confirms my construction of the Whitehead-Greenwood connection between that household and Susannah Whitehead's household, where a James Greenwood aged 10 is living in 1841, and where the 1841 Mary Whitehead is living in 1851. He definitely has to be the son of Betty (Whitehead) Greenwood.

But the records only go back to 1837.

Thanks very much for really trying to find him.

Ive pm'd the lady who has Ann Whitehead in her tree.

She is the only Whitehead she has in her tree

I have messaged all the other people with Whiteheads in Greetland, Ripponden and Rishworth too.

Who knows someone may know something.

Now looking in the same batch as the Hopkin/Mayall children, because it's handy, for a James born to an unmarried mother around your James's time, there's this one:

JAMES HUDSON
Christening: 08 JUN 1834 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mother: MARTHA HUDSON
Batch No.: C094871

He could be this one in 1841, but it's not a good match:

James Hudson 12
Ralph Hudson 10
Simeon Hudson 40
Thomas Hudson 7


and this one:

JAMES KEY
Christening: SEP 1834 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mother: EMMA KEY
Batch No.: C094871

The only likely candidate in 1841, born c1829, has parents John and Mary.


It could be impossible to trace either of them, if the mother married and the James adopted the stepfather's name. I don't see a marriage for either woman in the IGI.

Ah, we're destined by destiny on this one.

I click on TTF and what's at the very top of the page?

James Greenwood. And you. I'd suspect skullduggery of some sort ... if I were a Pisces ...

PISCES: February 19 - March 20
You have a vivid imagination and often think you are being followed by the CIA or FBI. ...


"but who is the father and is this my James?"

Rhetorical question, I assume. ;)


Someone here at GR has Ann Whitehead born 1813 in Greetland in her tree. This one, the weakest link in my chain maybe:

1. ANN WHITEHEAD - (mother Susannah)
Gender: Female Christening: 13 JUN 1813 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England


I'd probably fire off a PM and see whether she can shed any light on that family.


My very strong suspicion is:

Betty Whitehead born c1808 had a child named James c1832. The child went to live with her mother at some point.

The child's father was Richard. We don't know his surname. It could have been Greenwood.

She later married Henry Greenwood, who died before 1841, after the children William and Sarah were born.

Either James's father was a Greenwood, or he adopted his stepfather's name.


The James Greenwood with the Whiteheads is just the only James Greenwood going spare who remotely matches yours in 1841.


Now, yours did report born in Bolton in 1861. And there's a James in Bolton in 1841 (we've probably been through this before):

Benjamin Greenwood 15
David Greenwood 20
James Greenwood 10
Mary Greenwood 15
Sarah Greenwood 40

But he's accounted for in 1871 at least, in Westhoughton:

James Greenwood 41
Lambert Greenwood 3 6 months
Nancy Greenwood 37
Sarah Greenwood 76


Now, here's another James I considered. I found him because the mother's name was Betty, but that was an assumption that has no basis. Looking for someone who might have been christened in his mother's surname, but adopted his father's (Greenwood) later. But he's a bit interesting.

JAMES HOPKIN
Christening: 05 DEC 1830 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mother: BETTY HOPKIN
Batch No.: C094871

Actually daughter Sarah Ann was christened Mayall:

SARAH ANN MARGRETT MAYALL 1835.
The household in 1841 in Oldham below town:

James Hopkin 10
Sarah Ann Hopkin 6
Edna Magill 1
Ellen Magill 4
Betty Mayall 35
(checked the image; obviously the surnames are all Mayall)

It seems that the mother subsequently married:

ELLIN MAYALL
Christening: 04 JUN 1837 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: JOSEPH MAYALL
Mother: BETTY
Batch No.: C094871

They're next door to an elderly Mr Buckley, and in 1851 there's a Buckley child in the household where James is:

Name: James Hopkin
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

In 1861 Elizabeth Hopkin is a widow whose youngest child is 3. This is probably the death of James Hopkin:

Name: James Hopkins
Year of Registration: 1858
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Oldham
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 400

So it seems we can rule him out.

cont'd