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I agree Betty Greenwood is connected to the Whiteheads and James Greenwood is probably her son, but who is the father and is this my James?

Thanks for all your hard work Kath but you don't seem to be any closer. It's so frustrating this one.

Here's an interesting list of christenings from the IGI.

Children of John Whitehead and Susy/Suzy -- remember that in 1841, Susannah Whitehead is shown as not born in county:


1. ANN WHITEHEAD - (mother Susannah - matches Hannah in 1851)
Gender: Female Christening: 13 JUN 1813 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
2. JOSEPH WHITEHEAD (there's a Joseph in 1841 and 1851)
Gender: Male Christening: 04 MAR 1800 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
3. BETTY WHITEHEAD - (matches Betty Greenwood in 1841 etc.)
Gender: Female Christening: 24 MAR 1808 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
4. JOHN WHITEHEAD (a tad old for John in 1841)
Gender: Male Christening: 24 MAY 1794 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
5. WILLM. WHITEHEAD (no match)
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JAN 1806 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
6. THOS. WHITEHEAD (see below)
Gender: Male Christening: 27 NOV 1803 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
7. JAMES WHITEHEAD (matches James in 1841)
Gender: Male Christening: 03 OCT 1802 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
8. CHARLES WHITEHEAD (see below)
Gender: Male Christening: 04 JUN 1809 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England


1851

Name: Charles Whitehead
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: St James
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Oldham
Sub registration district: Oldham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1q
Household schedule number: 122

Charles Whitehead 45 - jobber in factory
Ann Whitehead 40 -- born Saddell? Yorkshire
Ann Whitehead 11
James Whitehead 18
John Whitehead 15
Mary Whitehead 17
Sarah Whitehead 13
Sarah Broadbent 38 - lodger, widow
William Broadbent 4


Another possible connection: Hannah Broadbent, daughter of Susannah, in 1851.


1841

Thomas Whitehead 35
Sarah Whitehead 30
John Whitehead 14
Martha Whitehead 10
Hannah Whitehead 7
James Whitehead 2
Joseph Whitehead 2
Mary Whitehead 3
William Whitehead 15

in Oldham old town -- all the family names are reproduced there again (although no Susannah; children did die in infancy). But then, what other names were there ...


1841

William Whitehead 40 - spinner
Sarah Whitehead 35
Betty Whitehead 5
Janos Whitehead 10
Joseph Whitehead 15
Mary Whitehead 15
Ralph Whitehead 3 - how common was the name Ralph?
Sarah Whitehead 12

Oldham below Town



Just some musings.

In 1841, Oldham was rather rife with Whiteheads born in Saddell/Saddleworth, Yorkshire. Dozens of 'em. It's between Oldham and Greetland, closer to Oldham.

Sorry he could have been from Pilkington

"Hnery Greenwood from Oldham"?

We don't know where Henry was from. He was apparently dead by 1841. Son William was born in Oldham.

Oldham and Bolton have always been separate parih areas ,but Pilkington is slap in the middle.

Richard Greenwood was born there

Hnery Greenwood from Oldham

Brothers???

No I didnt get the birth certs of the Hannahs I just was sure enough

Did you happen to get the birth certs for the two possible Hannah Greenwood-s (sister of William, daughter of Betty)?

Poo, Firefox crashed. I'll just have to reconstruct a little more. ;)

What I was doing was recapping my Whitehead-Greenwood theory just for easy reference. For me!


1841 households.

1.
James Greenwood 10 - cotton piecer
Joseph Whitehead 32 - ag lab
Ralph Whitehead 35 - ag lab
Susannah Whitehead 65

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham above Town

2.
Betty Greenwood 30 - washerwoman
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5
Mary Whitehead 35 - cotton weaver
James Whitehead 40 - "
John Whitehead 40 - "

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Crompton


1851

1.
Susannah Whitehead 75
Joseph Whitehead 46
Ralph Whitehead 46
Mary Whitehead 49 - daughter of Susannah
Hannah Thomas Broadbent 37 - daughter of Susannah
Sarah Ann Broadbent 4 - daughter of Hannah

Civil Parish: Oldham
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham

2.
Betty Greenwood 42 - Washerwoman
William Greenwood 15 - Cotton Fustian Cutter
(daughter Hannah is elsewhere)

Civil Parish: Crompton
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Royton


The two households are related. Mary Whitehead is in Betty Greenwood's household in 1841 and in Susannah Whitehead's household in 1851.

James Greenwood is in Susannah Whitehead's household in 1851.

Whether he's your James Greenwood ... ?

But I really do think he's Betty Greenwood's James.

Possibilities:

- his father, name unknown, was a son of Susannah Whitehead to whom Betty Greenwood was not married

- his mother was Betty née Whitehead a daughter of Susannah Whitehead and her Greenwood husband was James's father

- his father was someone else altogether and Betty née Whitehead had a child before marrying a Greenwood (James would have been living with his grandmother even during that marriage, possibly)


Now it seems, from the William baptism(s), that his father was Henry Greenwood.

The William baptism record(s) is for Oldham. He was living in Crompton as a young child in 1841. But in 1861, he says:
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England


Given how the landscape is littered with both those surnames, that isn't likely the only Greenwood-Whitehead connection in the neighbourhood! And we still don't know what it was, except that

Mary Whitehead, daughter of Susannah Whitehead with whom James Greenwood was living in 1841, was living with Betty Greenwood in 1841.

Mary could be the mother of James, for another theory. His father could have been the brother of Henry Greenwood ... and in 1841, Betty and Mary, the widows of the Greenwood brothers Richard and Henry, were sharing quarters.

Many theories that make sense but are all missing the link to make them any more!

They are close but a million miles away if you know what I mean.

Plenty of hills and valley in between especially in the 1840's and 50's

20 miles on current roads.

But Pilkington where Richard Greenwood lived with Betty is smack bang in the middle.

Maybe old parish boundries meant he could have been born in either.

However William Greenwood Fustian Cutter was living in Crompton which is 2-3 miles north of Oldham town Centre alongway from Bolton.

I will see if I can find anything on old boundries

Nope, can't find anything with Henry Greenwood's wife Betty's surname.

I was banished for having fun. ;)

I don't know my Lancashire geography a bit, and haven't made much of an effort to figure it out. I wonder whether Bolton might not be enumerator deafness, for Oldham, Bolton being more well known? Are they close at all?

Hang on -- missed this one somehow.

WILLIAM GREENWOOD
Christening: 03 JUL 1836 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: HENRY GREENWOOD
Mother: BETTY
Batch No.: C094871

That seems the more likely one for William.

I'm not 100% convinced he was born in Oldham, maybe the greater area of Oldham but not Oldham itself.

Remember on one Census it gave place of birth Bolton and one Oldham.

Can you find Betty, Henry's wife maiden name. Is that Whitehead.

Maybe James Greenwoods marriage cert is wrong. Like you said 'abandoned' James might not have known his father.

Would beg the question how he became a skilled boilermaker over a hundred miles from his birthplace though.

Glad to have you back. Pm why you were banished. I love scandel

Two possibles for death of Henry Greenwood husband of Betty, father of William and Hannah (Hannah born 1838-1839):


Deaths Mar 1839
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 107
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 3[79]

Hmm. That batch has these two Greenwoods, both with parents Henry and Betty:


1. ANN GREENWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 NOV 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England
2. WILLIAM GREENWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England


Couldn't be the same Henry and Betty, obviously.

So the IGI gives this for William Greenwood's birth -- but it's submitted and not extracted (but given the detailed date, I'd suspect it's accurate from parish records), and it tells us nothing anyway.

WILLIAM GREENWOOD
Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: HENRY GREENWOOD
Mother: BETTY


And I don't find a marriage.

Hello glad your back, what happened to you?

I too have looked and looked but nothing. Something is wrong somewhere.

1851 Census might be the answer. I am planning going to the Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society on the 27th Sept. They transcribed a large part of the 1851 census for Lancashire that was water damaged.

The Marriage cert info was this.

William Greenwood aged 25 married Hannah Watmough aged 25

December 31st 1860

Both of Fir Lane Crompton Oldham

Williams father Henry Greenwood Weaver

Hannahs father Henry Watmough Coaster

William was a fustian cutter

A James Cheetham and Abraham Jackson were witnesses

I'm baaaack! ;)

Simon -- would you put the certificate info here that you sent by PM? I was getting a bit confused that way ... A nice list would help.

I did spend some more time poking around the IGI and such, especially looking for some Whitehead-Greenwood connection (because I'm just not ready to give that one up!), but no more luck.

Is this the reason for no 1851 Census record for James

Manchester & Lancashire FHS

Unfilmed Census of 1851. MLFHS volunteers worked for 14 years to transcribe the water-damaged census returns for much of Manchester and virtually all of Salford together with parts of Ashton-under-Lyne and Oldham. The published data offers a choice between a transcript of the recovered details for a named individual, or for an additional charge, an image of the reconstituted enumeration book page on which they appear. All recovered data is now available on the site.

I am going to contact them, it might hold the answer I am looking for.

Katty B

Sorry no not yet, I hope you have calmed down from someone deleting the Sipiro thread.
My cousin in Scotland ordered 4 certs. She has 3 back but only one conclusive and thats a bith cert. It didn't tell us anything. The marriage certs have right names, DOB's and place of birth but different fathers.

Thanks for your interest. Your help and enthusiasm is much appreciated