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Query re 20thC Probate Calendar entries

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 29 Jun 2012 11:46

A number of them have place of death and usual residence.

Others have only usual residence.

As examples

.....of 39 Park House Welwyn Garden City Hertfordshire died 25 September 1949 at The Cherry Tree Bowling Green Welwyn Garden City Probate.....

....of 15 Cliff parade Leigh-on-Sea Essex died 5 January 1962 Probate .....

Would you assume that they died at the usual residence if no other place is mentioned?

As the ones above, and similar other's are the result of tidying up 'twigs', purchasing the DC is out of the question. The one who died at the Bowling Green was my 2nd Cousin, 3 times removed. You get the drift!!

:-D

Gins

Gins Report 29 Jun 2012 11:53

Ive seen one where his address was given and the place of death was 'The Yew Tree' public house!


........well, if yer gotta go ;-)


Det, I would assume the same as you..........some have the hospital listed as place of death

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 29 Jun 2012 12:00

It does add interest. doesn't it?! :-D

DazedConfused

DazedConfused Report 29 Jun 2012 20:05

I have a will which I ordered recently

It states he died in a Hospital in Margate (he had TB) but also stated his usual address.

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 29 Jun 2012 20:11

Piglet - if it was listed, what did the Calendar say? Did it mention where he died (Margate Hospital) or just his usual address?

Wanting to be accurate on my off-line tree, I'd rather not 'assume' they died at home just because no other place was mentioned. :-)

Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 30 Jun 2012 00:29

Place of death is where death was verified / confirmed.

My aunt told me that her grandfather died whilst gardening elsewhere in the village.
His death certificate shows he died at home.
It seems he was carried back home by fellow villagers immediately after he collapsed and it was there that a doctor attended and confirmed he had died.

My father collapsed and died when visiting another town, but his actual place of death is recorded as that town's hospital, not the place where it happened.

Gwyn

LindaB

LindaB Report 30 Jun 2012 02:21


Just a suggestion perhaps if you find the nearest library by googling which holds old newpapers...they may be able to find a possible obituary for you that may be of some help.

Local libraries have been a great help to me and I cannot praise them enough.

Linda

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 30 Jun 2012 08:25

Gwyn - I know what you mean. I have a similar instance in my family. Is yours listed on the Calendar? Is the place of death different to the home address?

Family lore said my grt grandfather died on his milk cart, in the street. His DC said he died at home (probably where he was declared dead) but the Probate Calendar says Farm Road, Millwall which fits with the 'story'.

It's this anomaly I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

If no place other then ususal residence is mentioned, can one assume that is where they died? Or at least the address they were at when the DC was issued?

Linda, if they were close relatives, your suggestion is a good one to follow up. However, for most of the ones I'm using the Probate Calendar to verify deaths, are distant twigs all be it blood line relatives or their spouses.

Thank you for your suggestions. :-)

Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 1 Jul 2012 10:04

Great grandfather is not listed on the Probate calendar.
I'm racking my brains to think of any other people I know who have died away from home, so that I can check their records.......

Gwyn

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 1 Jul 2012 10:36

Thanks Gwyn!

wisechild

wisechild Report 1 Jul 2012 12:36

My grandfather died in the street on his way to work.
His death cert shows his place of death as the street where he died.

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 2 Jul 2012 17:45


I have just compared death certificates obtained from GRO for g and gg grandparents and Certified Copies of Entry of Death documents.

DCs: Column 1 (When and Where died) shows a selection of information - ie gg grandmother (1893) Norton End, Baldock (believe the home address); gg grandfather (1895) The High Road between Walsworth and Hitchin Infirmary (accident, then died on way to Infirmary, inquest followed), uncle (1938) Princess Elizabeth of York Hospital for Sick Children, g grandmother (1952) St Clements Hospital.

However, on Certified Copies of an Entry of Death (I have 4 documents for my grandparents), section 1 required Date and Place of Death, Section 6 Occupation and Usual Address (of deceased).

I am also aware that the first bunch died before 1953, the others died after 1953 - and on two of the Certified Copies it refers to 'Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953'.

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 2 Jul 2012 20:59

Now that's interesting JannieAnnie.

So do you think that there could have been a change for entries after 1953 in the way the reproductions (GRO) are produced?

I'll have to dig out my grt grandfather (the one who died in the street) and compare column headings.

Thanks for posting

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 2 Jul 2012 22:08


Bit too legal but:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/1-2/20/contents

I know I looked at this legislation because there were changes to information provided - I think I wanted to know the maiden name of my grt grandmother and thought it should be on the death certificate because Section 4 requires "Maiden name of woman who has married" on the Certified Copy of an Entry of Death - except she had died before 1953.

As I do not have a GRO issued copy for the 4 deaths from 1976, 1984, 1989 and 1995 I can't be sure how a GRO issued DC looks post 1953.

It would be interesting to know if anyone has a GRO issued DC post 1953 and what information it contains . The ones I have are portrait, handwritten documents issued by Registrars within about a month after the events.

ADDED:

Just looked more carefully - all my documents are noted as Certified Copies of an Entry of Death - just some are issued by GRO and some by Registrars - the handwritten ones are what they produce for next of kin/children shortly after death for insurance purposes I think, but still technically a DC!



Andysmum

Andysmum Report 2 Jul 2012 22:51

My 1945 certificate for gt grandmother has "When and where died" in Column 1 and in Column 5, headed Occupation, it gives her home address and that she is the wife of XX, an electrician.

My 1967 certificate for my father has the same column headings as the other and also gives his home address in the Occupation column.

Both died in hospital. Perhaps if they had died at home column 5 would only show occupation? The only difference between the certificates is the size of the columns - the later ones are much bigger.

By the time my mother died in 1981 the certificates had become A4 shape and not long and narrow.

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 3 Jul 2012 00:48

Thank you all for your replies.

I'm beginning to have the suspicion that the details provided for the Probate Calendar may have been 'doctored' in some cases, especially when they've died someplace not 'suitable'!

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 3 Jul 2012 09:25


Been thinking about DCs (!!!) - I suppose the Probate Registry only requires forenames, surname, address, date of death, place of death which means that the Will or Letter of Administration can be located - and who would have provided that to them - the person(s) applying for probate.

Probate office has a form to complete when applying for Probate and requires an original copy of the DC - but it is quite likely that the details provided on the form could be 'doctored' or minimal details entered on the form.

I suppose it would be possible to email Probate Office to ask them about different levels of detail?

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 3 Jul 2012 09:31

Good suggestion - I might do that.

Thanks

DazedConfused

DazedConfused Report 3 Jul 2012 12:46

DetEctive - sorry for not getting back.

The probate record show only his death place & death. But the will was made out while he was in the TB hospital in Margate and stated where the will was made out and his usual home address.

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 6 Jul 2012 21:54

For both historical and current deaths, Scottish death records always give the place of death, and the usual residence... if it is different.
My mum in law died 2 weeks ago
Both the hospital where she died and her home address were put on the death cert