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what to make of it all

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Teresa

Teresa Report 23 Oct 2012 20:35

I am looking into my friends family for her and we have a bit of a puzzle - I hope i am posting this on the right board cause we sure could do with someone elses input on this, or suggestions.

William Thurston Lincoln born 18 July 1894 8 two brewers yard Norwich, father is down as William Lincoln a chimney sweep and mother martha anne lincoln formerly Lincoln.

Alfred Robert Lincoln born 7 may 1898 8 two brewers yard Norwich fathers name blank - mother Martha Lincoln a gardeners help

Both these boys are on 1901 census living at 8 two brewers yard with their grandparents William and Ann

In 1911 Alfred is boarding with a lady called sarah king - of William Thurston Lincoln I can find no sign.

I decided to go backwards to get clues on the parents william and martha. In 1891 living at 8 two brewers yard are William and Ann and interestingly 2 of their children are called william and martha.

I have assumed Alfred is son of daughter martha and that william is son of william. BUT - I can find no marriage of a William Lincoln to a Martha Lincoln and no sign of either of them after the births of those 2 boys.

My mind then went to the awful - was william thurston a result of a relationship between brother and sister or was the father william someone else. I so do not know what to think here. any suggestions anyone.

William and Ann are living at 118 barrack st in 1911 that says they ahd 6 children 1 of whom had died so either martha or william have to be around somewhere.

Its a puzzle indeed

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 23 Oct 2012 22:17

are you sure the birth certificate says father William Thurston Lincoln not just William Thurston

Marriages Sep 1910 (>99%)
Lincoln Martha A Mitford 4b 569
Rivett Walter Mitford 4b 569

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 23 Oct 2012 22:26

???


Name: Martha Ann Lincoln
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1873
Registration district: Norwich
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 155

Name: Martha A Rivett
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1953
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 172

EDIT: Maybe not as in 1911 there is a Martha A Rivett bc 1872 living in London. Unfortunately that also appears to be the case of the marriage found by Lancashireann as that couple are together in 1911 and that Martha born c1870 in Stow Bedon. norfolk.

Name: William Lincoln
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1875
Registration district: Norwich
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 163

Name: William Lincoln
Birth Date: abt 1876
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1963
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: Norwich Outer
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 1087

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 23 Oct 2012 23:03

Don't know if you already have this:

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: William Thurston Lincoln
Probate Date: 30 Apr 1958
Death Date: 7 Mar 1958
Death Place: Norwich
Registry: Norwich

Of 36 Merton Road, Dereham Road, Norwich. Died West Norwich Hospital, Bowthorpe Road. Admin to Alice Florence Lincoln, widow. Effects £216 11s 8d


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006
Name: William T Lincoln
Birth Date: abt 1895
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1958
Age at Death: 63
Registration district: Norwich
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 721

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 23 Oct 2012 23:12

Is this an odd coincidence, or what?

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: Thurston William Lincoln
Probate Date: 10 Feb 1893
Death Date: 8 Dec 1892
Death Place: Norwich, Norfolk, England
Registry: Norwich

A chimney sweep of 1 Duck Lane, St Benedict's Street, Norwich. Probate to Amelia Annie Earl (wife of James Earl). Effects £15


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
Name: Thurston William Lincoln
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1892
Age at Death: 52
Registration district: Norwich
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 113

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 23 Oct 2012 23:52

My theory is that Martha Lincoln (daughter of William and Ann) had two illegitimate children. The father of the first, William Thurston, acknowledged paternity and was so named on the birth record and his son was given his surname as a middle name (common practice back then).

When Alfred Robert was born it was perhaps a different father or paternity was not acknowledged.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the Lincoln formerly Lincoln scenario for the mother's name. Because William Thurston would have attended the registration of his son's birth the registrar may have assumed Martha was married and when asked what her maiden name was she truthfully answered Lincoln (or some such scene).

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 24 Oct 2012 00:14

I wonder if Martha died??

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1903 (>99%)
Lincoln Martha Ann 30 St. Faiths 4b 67

Teresa

Teresa Report 24 Oct 2012 16:41

Hello folks so sorry not to reply before but had to log off till now. Now firstly have to appologise as i made a boob which I have now corrected but it makes the whole outlook different so it was a big mistake. I wrote that the father of William Thurston Lincoln was down as William Thurston and it should be Wiliiam LINCOLN, hence my confusion, I do appologise for confusing you all.

I had considered that maybe martha or william had died but they can't both have as 1911 says that william and ann had only lost 1 child I have still to determine which one of the 6 children they had died but I have accounted for 3 so far so its a work in progress.

Marieceleste no i did not have that information so I thank you for it. I have not dealt with probate and things before does this mean there is a will we can send for somewhere?
Also the second record you mentioned Thuston william Lincoln poses me some questions. as it mentions Amelia Annie Earl wife of James Earl. I spent quite a while last night looking for the where abouts of William and Anns eldest Child Hannah Maria Lincoln born 1871. I was beginning to think she married a James Earl as I found a possible marriage in 1891, however on searching the census James wife is always down as Annie, now first I thought that maybe this was a nickname but that record you mention says her middle name is amelia so that rules that out, back to the drawing board with Hannah too. That said Thurston William Lincoln may possibly enter this tree further back I have yet to confirm it.

Batmans daughter the death of Martha record is a big possibility, I think the time has come to spend some money and get a death certificate.
Its all very complicated, I thank you all for your thoughts

BatMansDaughter

BatMansDaughter Report 24 Oct 2012 17:56

Hi,

who registered William Juniors birth?? Was it his mother? If it was then I would guess that she used what she knew to register her son's birth.... her fathers details.... this would save "face" in the registrar knowing that she had had an illegitimate child.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 24 Oct 2012 19:09

Hi Teresa - where did you get Hannah's middle name of Maria from?

Keep an open mind about names and don't be too quick to dismiss Annie Amelia - try saying "Hannah Maria" out loud and then "Annie Amelia" - they actually aren't that different! Hannah, Annie, Ann, Nan are often interchangeable. It might not actually be the same person in this case but worth bearing in mind.

Furthermore, this probate record is interesting as I think it confirms the marriage of Hannah Maria to James Earl:

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: James Earl
Probate Date: 6 Oct 1939
Death Date: 12 Apr 1939
Death Place: Norfolk, England
Registry: Norwich

Of Strumpshaw, Norfolk, died Norfolk & Norwich Hospital. Probate to Annie MARIA Earl, widow, and James Henry Earl, seed merchant. Effects £1418 12s 1d


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006
Name: James Earl
Birth Date: abt 1865
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1939
Age at Death: 74
Registration district: Norwich
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 201

Teresa

Teresa Report 24 Oct 2012 19:45

Hi again

First question to answer It was the mother Martha who registered both the boys birrths - your theory of her putting her father could be a way to go, they sure didn't have to think how bad that would look today lol.

As for Hannah Maria the name came from her baptism record which I got from the norfolk baptism project her birth record gives the same name. I think yet another cert is called for I shall send for the marriage of the Hannah Maria I found leave off the husband and see what comes back. Hopefully I won't waste money, sometimes tho you just have to take a gamble.

Where do you find these probate info marieceleste

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 24 Oct 2012 19:46

Teresa - the probate records are from Ancestry.

I've added some further info to my post above.

Teresa

Teresa Report 24 Oct 2012 19:57

this is not the first time i have kicked myself for going with findmypast instead of ancestry lol

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 24 Oct 2012 20:05

I have a theory that James Earl was the "stepson" of Thurston William Lincoln.

Digging around the records I find that Thurston was first married in 1865 to Hortensia Lefevour Hewell Symonds (he was lodging with her family in 1861 where she was plain Hortensia Hewell). Hortensia died in 1884 and on the 1891 census Thurston is with a new "wife" Amelia (no sign of a marriage).

I've then tracked James Earl backwards and on the 1871 there is a James Earl b1865, mother Amelia Earl. Did she later take up with Thurston and that's how the connection was made to Hannah/Annie?

Also, Thurston and William (Hannah & Martha's dad) were both born Beccles ....

Teresa

Teresa Report 24 Oct 2012 20:37

now that last bit I did find out I am certain they are brothers tho they were not actually born beccleswe have eliminated that one, most census say a place called shipmeadow but they are nt egistered there even if they lived thee. I am assuming as it is so close to the norfolk/suffolk border they chose to be baptised in Norwich. I have found some of the records but got stuck on William and thurstons father which I know was James, With such a common name I couldn't find a record giving James father - then quite by chance I found out he actually emarried and as it was after 1837 I got a fathers name from the certificate, Henry Lincoln a sawyer but heaven only knows when and where HE was born lol. This family has been a complete headache lol

Quoy

Quoy Report 25 Oct 2012 02:44

Hello

looking through the newspapers I came across this

Thurston W Lincoln a man suffering with rheumatic fever and a voter for Stacey,stated he had received a bribe of 7sh 6d from Brock a tailor

NORWICH ELECTION COMMISSION .
The Standard (London, England), Monday, October 11, 1869; pg. 3; Issue 14099. 19th Century British Library Newspapers: Part II.