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Speaking ill of the dead

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JoyBoroAngel

JoyBoroAngel Report 3 Oct 2012 15:35

yes sharron i agree the truths the truth :-D

Malcolm

Malcolm Report 3 Oct 2012 15:37

In my community I am often called upon to "do the honours" when someone snuffs it. I've studied the form and believe that it's false and pointless to cover up if someone has lived a less than blameless life.

At the same time there are obviously boundaries of taste and it takes some skill to say what everyone knows is the truth without being cruel. Humour can be introduced into death ceremonies and I find that looking the mourners right in the eye when delivering a pointed comment is helpful and relieves the tension they are feeling.

It is not a case of "speaking ill" it's a case of telling, sometimes bending the truth to say what everybody is thinking. Above all I believe there is great good in everyone and I always end my pieces by focusing on that fact.

I am disturbed, as I'm sure most of you are by the revelations about JS, but I do believe he was a good man and probably made vulnerable by his position in showbiz. There are always two sides to a story and he can no longer tell his.

~Lynda~

~Lynda~ Report 3 Oct 2012 15:38

It can be that only after a death, you can feel the freedom to say what you think of someone, knowing that they are unable to hurl abuse, as it seems in cases like yours Sharron. I don't know your story, but imagine you feel some sort of relief, that you can no longer be abused. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, but if that is not your case, I'm sure it is in a lot of cases.

♥†۩ Carol   Paine ۩†♥

♥†۩ Carol Paine ۩†♥ Report 3 Oct 2012 15:46

I believe that you should NOT come up with things against a person once they have died as you are not punishing them just their families.

Just why did these girls not shout loudly at the time & as for one who is getting paid well to tell about being taken to a motor home several times in the 70's!
Why did she go back & not stay well away from him?

I agree with Guinevere, but if they wanted to they could have told years ago when the CPS were looking for proof.
There were allegations when he was alive, so why did they wait until he died before saying they are telling for the sake of others?

I am not saying that he was innocent, just that the cases now being published are too late, for the full stories to be known.







Guinevere

Guinevere Report 3 Oct 2012 15:55

Some of the women did go to the police at the time, Carol, but they were just kids.

Some women complained but he was too "important" and said they wouldn't be believed. Colleagues of his are saying it was true. A shame they didn't say so at the time.

Maybe these women have a need to tell their stories having been quiet for so long. Maybe it's therapeutic for them. Maybe it sickened them to hear him talked about as though he was a saint.

Perhaps the police will review the witness statements made against him at the time and we can judge for ourselves.

I believe them, as I said.

Gwynne

Sharron

Sharron Report 3 Oct 2012 16:03

Those who are dead can no longer be harmed but the living need to be healed.

The reputation of Jimmy Saville is really of little importance in comparison to the wellbeing and psychological suffering of those who may have suffered because of the need to maintain that reputation.

Joeva

Joeva Report 3 Oct 2012 16:54

A woman was interviewed on TV today and gave a very graphic description of her and a friend's ordeal. Their abuse was to form part of a documentary made by the BBC many years ago but was shelved, without explanation.

Brings to mind a quotation from Edmund Burke ' all that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.'

~Lynda~

~Lynda~ Report 3 Oct 2012 17:08

For those of us who remember the pre 90's, it wasn't, in a lot of circles, thought proper to talk about sex, let alone tell anyone if someone had been inappropriate towards you, you probably wouldn't have even known the words to use.

My thread wasn't particularly aimed at JS, I don't know the facts of that, only what I have heard the accusers say, I expect we will know more after the programme this evening. But I do know that if anything inappropriate did take place, there were two girls who said something did happen, were in an approved school, where JS did some "charity work" Can you imagine these two girls being believed? No of course not, they would have been told they were filthy girls for saying such things of such a "wonderful man"

I don't know what it's like to be abused, thank goodness, but I know people who have, and know that to speak out means having to go over what happened, again and again, perhaps that's what happened to these girls, they couldn't cope with that, after being told what liars they were the first time. People who abuse, often do "good work" as a cover up for there filthy exploits.

I was very worried about a fellow foster carer once, I had no proof of him doing anything untoward, yet there were signs of things that weren't right, and I expressed my concerns, more than once, I was told what a good man he was, and what I thought I saw was nothing, imagine my horror, when I read in the local paper, that he had been abusing his foster children. I never thought him a wonderful man, just because he fostered, I saw him for what he was.

If it is proved that JS was up to no good, and the girls he abused are some how healed for coming out about it after his death, then good for them, they may be able to sleep at night, and that is worth far more than someone's good name.

I bet there are a lot of people very worried if they knew anything was going on, and like Gwynne said, if they did know and did nothing, shame on them.

Lady Cutie

Lady Cutie Report 3 Oct 2012 17:15

My sister in law died about 2/3 yrs ago
we didnt speak when she was alive
so i saw no point in going to her funeral .
Hazelx

Sharron

Sharron Report 3 Oct 2012 17:22

Where do you draw the line at not speaking ill of the dead?

I suppose Hitler had his good points.

~Lynda~

~Lynda~ Report 3 Oct 2012 17:29

As I'm sure did Pol Pot did Sharron :-0

JoyBoroAngel

JoyBoroAngel Report 3 Oct 2012 17:30

to be honest its my opinion
if some body knows somebody' has been abused and does nothing

they are no better than the abuser :-(

so never mind peoples good name
name and shame to the police stand up and be counted

Sharron

Sharron Report 3 Oct 2012 17:54

Everybody knows how it was with my childhood.I have gone on remorselessly about it.

My next door neighbour's daughter would appear to be narcissistic, like my mother. Because of my own experience, when I could hear her verbally abusing her scapegoat son and punishing him psychologically as could many others, I knew just how much he was suffering.

I had no idea of what to do about it.
Those who write to agony aunts are often told to talk to an adult they can trust.I am an adult and consider myself to be trustworthy and have had experienceof abus but have no idea at all of what to do should a child in similar circumstances confide in me.

maggiewinchester

maggiewinchester Report 3 Oct 2012 18:47

Didn't I hear that there a programme about him and his 'ways' in 2007?
It was never shown.
Just found this:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/sir-jimmy-saville-was-questioned-by-police-over-sex-assault-at-children-s-home-1-2558300

It explains a lot
There's a programe on ITV between 11pm and midnight about him


~Lynda~

~Lynda~ Report 3 Oct 2012 19:42

Hi Sharron, when a child has nobody to turn to and then they choose you to confide in, it's often because they know you're a good listener, and above all they trust you, that in itself is a great honour.
If a child, ever discloses anything to you, I think the best thing is just listen, then ask what it is they would like to happen next, and go from there. I don't think you can really plan for these things, and maybe what you think you would do, you wouldn't, every case is different.

I didn't know about your relationship with your mother, but I'm so sorry that you had that experience. I had the perfect Mum, but it was only later in life that I realised not everyone had a Mum like mine, I think that is why I did the work I did.

Maggie, someone said elsewhere that there was a rumour about his "ways" and it was only when I saw Coleen Nolans comment about him that I remembered, that I had seen her say the same thing a few years ago. I don't know whether I'll watch the t.v programme about him, but I'm sure the whole affair will get bigger after it.

maggiewinchester

maggiewinchester Report 3 Oct 2012 19:48

Have to admit that if anything like this had come out after a relation of mine had died, I wouldn't have been very happy.

In fact, I would be furious that the relation was dead, and couldn't be confronted!

As a child I couldn't think of anything that I wanted 'fixing' enough for me to have to be in the company of JS - he gave me the creeps.

Susan10146857

Susan10146857 Report 4 Oct 2012 00:15

Hmmmm!

maggiewinchester

maggiewinchester Report 4 Oct 2012 00:23

Just watched the programe.
Before it came on, I phoned a friend, and mentioned it.
Strangely, he'd been talking to a mutual friend about JS earlier in the day.
A close friend of this friend used to work in a club in Southampton.
JS used to occasionally come down and DJ. One of his 'riders' was a good looking girl (age unspecified - but no underage girls were involved in the club) to hang on his arm whenever he appeared. Apparently, JS could get quite violent if he was contradicted - and he was a big man. Friends friend was so disgusted by what happened at these occasional appearances of JS that he left his job at the club.

I hope he comes forward.

BTW, I never went to the club, I'm 7 years younger than my friend and our mutual friend - and it had closed by the time I was 18!!

Penny

Penny Report 4 Oct 2012 07:28

Stoke Mandeville hospital was thronging with TV reporters yesterday, wanting someone to dish the dirt.

One theory is, that if his wrong doings were aired earlier then people would cease supporting Stoke madeville - a member of hospital staff told me that.

hazel

hazel Report 4 Oct 2012 11:08

well, one childs word against a massive "celebrity" seems like no contest to me. the only thing is, that perhaps now , the "house of cards" or "can of worms" will gain momentum, and other predators from childrens "homes" and similar will be exposed.there are a number of messages on the web from years ago, stating about the abuse at duncroft.not only the chemical cosh,but "visitors" including professional psychiatric staff.esther rantzen? well, she said herself it was an open secret, she kept quiet, why? protecting herself?