General Chat

Carol. I hear what you are saying and wish it was true but in the 70s if you showed interest in sex you were labelled as 'promiscuous'. And in school you might have giggled about the idea of sex but most of us knew so very little.

If I can share something that happened to me and my collegues in 1978. We were all about seventeen. It's how you began in my Government office at the time; at the bottom doing the basic clerical stuff.

We were all friends and sometimes socialised outside of work. One lunchtime one of the girls had broken down and finally told one of the others about an older member of staff and what he had been doing to her. That was then shared with the rest of the group as stories were passed on as conversations in corners were overheard and within an hour, we had established that it wasn't just her. For her it was being cornered and rubbed up against plus being asked for sex. Girls in two other departments were involved, not only ours. In some cases it was 'accidental' touching or no way 'accidental'. For some of us it was obscene sexual inuendo (including rape) and propositions. It had gone on for weeks and we had all suffered in silence because of embarrassment and/or fear.

Anyway, we decided that we obviously needed to tell someone. We picked on one of the supervisors; a nice guy and only in his early twenties so not too much older. A couple of the girls went to see him and within minutes all hell had broken loose. All we had wanted to do was get him to tell this man to stop. Of course our colleague took the only action he could but we didn't think much of it that day. He went to my boss who had responsibility for most of our pool.

He wasn't a man known for being kind or understanding plus he was then in his fifties and very much in the mindset of females should be in the home having babies.

Four of us went in on behalf of everyone and he demanded that we all tell our stories. I think that he wanted to prove that we were making it all up or at very least exagerating. He then said that we each had to put it in writing. He said this would go into our records which would show that we had caused a man to lose his job.

The four of us stood strong and we refused to take it all back and we refused to put it in writing because none of us wanted our reports to read that way. Exit his office leaving one very p'd off boss. He had tried to persuade us we were over reacting and it wasn't as bad as we made out. A few minutes later our colleague was removed from the premises. Some older colleagues tried to tell us that we should have kept quiet and some said that we should just have avoided him. Our jobs and his meant that we didn't sit at a desk all day so short of going around in two's for safety, we couldn't be certain of not running into him. I had to spend ten minutes each day in his designated work area and the stuff he said to me was appalling. I couldn't always work it for someone else to be there at the same time. Another colleague who knew him better said that he was on medication for Epilepsy and it was the meds that made him like that. He said we should have been more understanding and sympathetic.

So as you can see, in the 70s, there really was sometimes not a lot of sympathy and understanding when young girls finally spoke out.

maybe it helped that I was a country girl, hard to be naive when there are animals around ( no pun intended)

I was at a girls' school in the 60s and we were told to watch out for older men who would try to take advantage of younger girls.

My parents spoke in some depth to me about the possibilitlies of sexual abuse and to be careful of strangers This was just after the Moors murders and they felt I should know about the perils out there.

I'm glad they did, because when a friend of my grandfather's did attempt to molest me I knew exactly what he was up to and told my parents straight away.

I cannot believe anyone has any doubts about what Savile did. Do people really think all these women are lying? The girl paralysed in a wheekchair, unable to move away? The brain damaged girl in bed, helpless, but witnessed by a girl in the next bed. They have finally found the courage to speak out and should be admired for that not have doubts cast on their honesty.

Jimmy Savile picked on the weak and vulnerable because he knew he'd probably get away with it. Shame on those who let him. As for comparing him to the pop groups of the day - words fail me. He was a predatory paedophile, or as we called them at the time - a dirty old man.

Well I can only speak from my experience.

In 1962 the two end walls in the science corridor and language corridor were painted with full frontal nudity murals by one of the girls who was extremely talented.

In the library NO books were banned because of their content.

In the Biology lab we had preserved foetuses, human as well as animal.

All of the above promoted discussion BUT when I went to the centenary tea everything had changed. The murals had been painted over, all specimens had been removed and the library had been dumbed down.

Perhaps the school had bowed to pressure as it was, by then, multi faith.

Maybe I had the better opportunity to experience the 60's with a balanced approach. Perhaps because I was in London, perhaps because my much older siblings were very open to discussing anything.

Music lyrics were becoming very explicit, remember the uproar about the Stones 'let's spend the night together'?

Family planning clinics were popping up all over the place so sex WAS discussed. Maybe not by all but certainly by my contemporaries.

Isn't the point here that we are not talking about popstars or celebrities who engaged in consensual sex with fans...but about someone who was an adult ( and in his 30s/40s when much of this went on) using his celebrity to commit sexual acts against minors who were not legally old enough to consent

Yes Rose, sorry I was sidetracked, not difficult :-(

1970s I was just embarking on taking up nursing and boy sex was talked about non stop.......also there was a nurses home.. ;-) ;-) ;-)....

I remember a girl from where I lived,,,,,,,,,she slept with or claimed to a prominent tight waring singer -----she was just 15 mid 1960s..

also between 1958---1969 saw the highest out of marriage births,,,,,,,so sex did happen,,

I was always warned about being alone with a boy/man and what could happen,,,,,,,warnings were,,,,,dont walk home alone,dont leave any mates to do the same dont go out with boys...a constant of --dont do.......

So right Supercrutch and Rose. Even in those days these sort of people worked in a position where they had easy access to their prey, as is now. Or, they were in a position of trust.

Julia in Derbyshire

Sue, my comment wasn't in response to yours :-) it was a shortened version of a longer post lol but hadn't got time to edit it enough for the board but it was also partly re mention of 'the comedians') ;-) going to meet D >>>

I quoted the Profumo case because I remember asking my Mum what a call girl was.
My parents though strict were very approachable,we lived on a farm & my 3 elder sisters & I were taught that if we wanted to know anything or were worried about anything or anyone we could ask/tell them.

I think the majority of teenagers in the 60's were far from ignorant about the true facts of life, even more than the poor Biology teacher who had the unenviable task of teaching them.

I went to a co-ed Secondary School & though I did not take part many a practical demonstration happened behind the bike shed.

The women now making accusations could not have all been ignorant of what was being done to them & by not telling someone at the time or when JS was being accused in his lifetime are in my opinion now expecting monetary reward for something they had a part in doing.


I have attended Child Abuse Training courses both Basic & Advanced regularly over the last 40 years as part of my Professional Training & know that in acute cases of abuse the child will block all memories of what has happened to them. I do not feel that it is so in these cases, so why wait till there is no-one alive to answer these charges? The so called witnesses should be charged with withholding information which could have lead to an arrest.


edit ... I am not saying he did not do all he is accused of, or that it was right, but that all cases will need to be carefully looked into.

I have been reading this thread and what you ALL don't seem to get is that JS would have talked his way out of the accusations like he did on the Irish Radio Programme and the abuse started in the early 60's not 7-0's.
The late 50's and early 60's was when he worked at the Mecca Dance hall in Leeds
And no it didn't happen to me but he had free reign of the Mecca.

...

I get it Sue, I've heard a few of his old interviews this week, and whenever he has been asked a question, it's never answered, even silly questions weren't answered, he thought he was a law unto himself didn't he?

Sue I have no doubt that he did abuse some vulnerable girls, i just can't get over that none of these told an adult or those adults who witnessed abuse kept their mouths firmly shut!

The side discussion re talking about sex during the time span he allegedly abused was a distraction but I guess two sides were trying to justify their point of view as to why it wasn't investigated earlier.

Sue

Carol Paine -

"I have attended Child Abuse Training courses both Basic & Advanced regularly over the last 40 years as part of my Professional Training & know that in acute cases of abuse the child will block all memories of what has happened to them. I do not feel that it is so in these cases, so why wait till there is no-one alive to answer these charges?"

I worked with such children as part of my professional life and I can tell you they do not always block it out. Most of them remember it clearly - they just are afraid to tell because of threats to them, misplaced guilt or the fear of not being believed.

So many have spoken out now because there is safety in numbers, they feel that now they will be believed and have found the courage to talk. The police are investigating reports made to them years ago. Some of them did speak out at the time.

As for speculation they are now telling their stories for monetary gain - well words fail me.

Blame the victim? I thought we'd moved on from that mind set.

I suspect that, because a "victim" thought that it was them alone,(or even their own fault)

the " I dont want to get involved, I'm too ashamed" aspect,

came into it

Bob

Supercrutch..

We never had sex education at school and I was in a secondary girls school back in the 50's.

Have you ever thought what the abuser would say to the vinctim...

If you tell anyone what has happened you won't be belived and you will be taken in to care away from your parents and siblings and you will never see them again.

So keep your mouth shut or else...

Sue in Leeds, |i wholeheartedly agree with you words, re telling anybody. That is so true.

Julia in Derbyshire

Carol I dont agree with you on many aspects in your post.

I certainly belive there are far too many claims now from victims and knowingly by-standers not to give this man a label.....and I also think hes in the better place at this time........

Carole you say you "attended Child Abuse Training courses both Basic & Advanced" but did you actually work with vulnerable children?

I've done a few courses on health & safety, but never worked in that field. Attending a course and actually working in that field is very different. I've worked with vulnerable children and adults, and I've been truly astonished at what I have seen and heard. I've also worked with paedophiles, and would say that I don't think many people would know just how manipulative they can be, it's an extremely murky world, and one I wouldn't even want to understand.

I don't know where the idea comes from that if you were a child of the 60's you knew it all, I certainly didn't, I was still a child at 15 I'd say. The world is full of different people, some who are children a lot longer than others, paedophiles prey on those who are vulnerable, in ways you wouldn't even think about.

Yes Guinevere I should have said:

"I have attended Child Abuse Training courses both Basic & Advanced regularly over the last 40 years as part of my Professional Training & know that in some acute cases of abuse the child will block all memories of what has happened to them. I do not feel that it is so in all of these cases, so why wait till there is no-one alive to answer these charges?"

I will leave original so as to make sense to anyone reading through the thread.
I also agree with what you are saying about safety in numbers, but unfortunately there will be some who knew he was in the area where they live & make false claims.

I think the label will stick & rightly so, those cases reported in the past especially need looking into. What I do not agree with is the way that some of the media are rubbing their hands in glee & taking statements from people, this could be detrimental to any legal case in the future.

I also think & hope that this case will help others who have been abused to speak out & not just against JS.