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Hello you lovely people, yes my granma Mary Jane nee Smyth/e /Smith married my grandfather William Chapman after the birth of my Aunty Frances. Grandad Chapman always said that the Smyth/es were just jumped up Smiths hence when he gave any official details he mostly called her Smith although Smyth/e was her family name. Mary Jane was born to Mary Jane Millward and Joseph H Smyth/e and what a lot of shenanigans with that lot.

I didn't know about a child Mary J 1923

My Dad maybe not on 1939 electoral because he was called up to his Army service by then, he married my Mum Dec 1939 and was wearing Army uniform, he was at Dunkirk and never really spoke about those years.

My Dads sister Aunty Frances married a Joe Millar he was an invalid and always used a vehicle that looked like a covered bicycle, she had suffered with rickets as a child and had trouble with one leg being shorter than the other. I have lots of info on the Smyth/e family.

My grandparents moved upto Droylsden from Manchester in the 1930s address being 35 Farrar Road.
:-D :-D

ah so the blacked out person is our Frances's dad

not helping us with Thomas's later life but at least knowing what is in the 1939 register tells us what isn't there anyway, i.e. that his death was not recorded there by 1991

And Mary J died soon after birth:

Deaths Jun 1923
CHAPMAN Mary J 0 Prestwich 8d 469

Rose

heh, I was just editing about that

and a birth for Frances Q4 1914

The marriage is under Smith. Frances' father has MMN Smith also.

Rose

actually no marriage for those surnames either Rose, so there must be some family complication :-)

Frances if you could tell us any more about Thomas's siblings, and his mother's name, we might be able to find the household in 1939 just in case he is shown (which should be the case if he had died before 1991, which is hopefully not the case)

but since Eileen and Frances had died by then, we should be able to find them ... and I can't ...

oh .......... could this be the household in 1939?

35 , Droylsden U.D., Lancashire, England
William Chapman 12 Aug 1892 Male ???** Married
Mary J Chapman 17 Jun 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Dutie Married
Frances Millab (Chapman) 16 Oct 1914 Female Artificial Hewer Maker Single
Thomas Chapman 25 Apr 1924 Male Machinist Raincoat Single
** it seems to say: m/c corporation cleansing scavenger heavy worker

and hmmm here is the strange thing
the person under Frances is blacked out as not accessible
and then the person after Thomas is blacked out as not accessible
BUT where the transcript says 'Thomas', the image actually says 'Eileen'

what a serendipitous thing - someone transcribed the wrong name!

the details shown for Thomas - date of birth, occupation - are actually the correct details for Eileen (her married surname is also shown)

so the person between Frances and Eileen is your father, Frances ... or no, that would be Mary J 1924, maybe your father had left home

and the person after Eileen is Thomas (1931?)

which indicates that he was not deceased as of 1991 in any case



Marriages Sep 1915 ?
Chapman William Smith Manchester 8d 608
Smith Mary J Chapman Manchester 8d 608

Is that the correct birth for Thomas? Using Smythe as the mother's maiden name the only only other siblings shown are Mary and Eileen.

Rose

Will keep you informed if i discover your obsessive tendencies pay dividends.

Thank you once again Joonie.

:-D
Frances

a bit of luck :-) coupled with obsessive tendencies :-D

the only name I saw in a list of possible marriages that looked anything like the possible partner's names was that one, and the records all unravelled into a fairly neat potential match!

Where to go from there ... no deaths show in the index up to 2007 for a Thomas Chapman born June 1931 ... or a Nellie (or Helen) Chapman probably born 1934

I just have to say Joonie- what a fantastic piece of work- definitely worth looking into.

Hi JoonieCloonie

Thank you for your time and information you have supplied, it is something I can work on.

The two children that were his partners were about maybe 3 to 6/7, they went to live with my late brother and his family for a few weeks and just upped and left under a dark cloud, no idea what had occcured and nobody left to ask.

Thanks once again
Frances :-)

would the name Nellie be a possible?

A Thomas Chapman (no middle initial) married a 'Nelli' (according to the index entry) in Bolton in 1974

A child was born in 1968 in Salford with the surname of that Nelli as the mother's surname, but double registered, in two surnames, one of them Chapman

the other surname was the name of Nelli's first husband (to whom she was still married, and thus the child was legally required to be registered in his surname)

that scenario would fit the times and places for your Thomas, and your possible recollection of the name 'Helen' maybe

search at http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

for Chapman births 1968 1st quarter Salford

and click on page no. 687 to see what I'm saying

the name on the 1974 marriage is spelt 'Nellie' at freebmd, although the index does say 'Nelli'

the first marriage was in 1961 and you can also see it at Freebmd
(although not in the Middlesbrough area)

there are births with the surname of the first husband and Nellie's surname in the early 1960s in the general vicinity of that marriage, but they could be accounted for by other marriages ... so that may be the one element that doesn't fit your scenario ... there are 1 girl and 3 boys, but only the boys show at Freebmd ... do you have an idea of how young the children with your uncle's partner were?

that Nellie was probably born in 1934

this is a possibility, just that ...

Hi Gins yes he had two sisters and one brother my Dad, my Auntie Frances died in late 1950s, Auntie Eileen died 1970s my Dad died 1980s. My grandparents died in 1950s grandad William Chapman and my grandma died 1970s.

They originated from Ancoats and Newton Heath area of Manchester before moving to Droylsden in late 1930s early 1940s.

I am one of 7 children and only 3 of us are still living, just seemed a bit sad that the family is gradually dwindling and seeing I'm swinging into my early 7os thought I'd have a last attempt at putting things to right. :-)

Do you have any other details on Thomas such as parents, siblings etc?

Hi Malyon

Thanks for your reply, I think he may have had a middle name of 'P' maybe Patrick but that would have been a confirmation name having been brought up in RC religion.

Frances

Love your photo of you GSD I've adopted one he's 10 year old and an adorable monkey. :-D

that birth for Thomas has no middle name

Thank you ladies, perhaps I should have said his birth was registered in Sept Qrt 1931 Manchester N 8d 728 mmn Smythe.

I only know his partner left her husband behind in Middlesborough or that area and she had two children a boy and a girl, I think she may have been called Sheila, Shirley or Helen but no surname for her or the name of the child she had with my Uncle.

Long shot I know my Uncle was a labourer in the building industry.

Thank you for you interest.

Frances

The birth Q that you give for his birth, all the Thomas' have a middle name?


THOMAS HENRY

Last nameCHAPMAN

Birth day2

Birth month4

Birth year1931

Death quarter3

Death year2001

DistrictSALFORD

District number0111A
Register numberTA62
Entry number036
Date of registration mm/yy0901



This could be the man above - 1939 register

Brattington Household (4 People)
Prospect House , Newcastle-under-Lyme R.D., Staffordshire, England

Thomas Chapman 02 Apr 1931 Male Evacuees At School Single 85 4
Thomas J Brattington 03 Aug 1910 Male Horseman On Farm Married 85 1
Annie Brattington 20 Apr 1909 Female Home Duties Unpaid Married 85 2
William Chapman 09 Jun 1929 Male Evacuees At School Single 85 3

Have you checked to see if he married .could the child be reg with his surname too

I last saw my Uncle Thomas Chapman in about 1966/7. he was living in Droylsden area and his partner was pregnant at the time. He was born June 1931 and was my late fathers brother.

He lodged with my late brother and his family but they suddenly up sticks and vanished in thin air.

He will be 85 this month and time is getting short.

Niece
Frances