Genealogy Chat

ChristinaS

Sorry missed your 1861 as I was posting - and how funny that your ancestor lived in the same street!

I was looking on another site beginning with M - found Mary Ann Clifton - variously born in St Olave (SE London) and St Georges (East London) who seems to have died in 1879 - or was that Mary2.

If it wasn't for the marriage in 1850 I would think it was the same Mary in 1871 - bit concerned that she has now aged 20 years again - then again he might have been confused which one she was! Also a bit surprised that there were no further children - she was still quite young when they married.

Okay, so here's the 1871 census, just to send us loopy.

St.George in the East - 80 Anthony Steet

John French - head - 65 - coppersmith - Chingford, Essex
Mary A. French - wife - 65 - St. Georges, Middx.

Just searched all trees and found I had been given access to a tree when I first started researching - it has Bicks, Catchpoles and Precious' - but not the tree of a direct descendant of Jane (died young in 1889 apparently) - and no sign of Mary2.

Interestingly there is a note of John's death occurring in 1880 in Bethnal Green (aged 74) - so he must have been somewhere in 1861 and 1871.

J-A

EDIT: 22.43 - Another tree has Jane's date of death as 1927! Typical

My copy & pasting never comes out right, so

1861 census - St.George in the East - 13, (afraid I can't read the street)

John French - head - 55 - coppersmith - Chingford, Essex
Mary Ann French - wife - 35 - St.George in the East
Jane French - dau - 15 - scholar - St.George in the East

I noticed that in 1871 Joseph French was living at 59, Morgan Street, Mary and her husband, George Catchpole, were living at no.35 and one of my 3 x gt.grandmothers was living at no.12! They may well have known each other!
Isn't that a funny thought.

Christina

Thank you - seeing those names I think I recognise them, they are all a bit different - probably when I have contacted other members with French in their tree (or viewed public trees on other sites).

So perhaps some of my theory is correct - Mary1 died after Jane, John remarried - and perhaps not just to have someone to look after the youngest ones, as daughter Mary married 5 years later (not immediately after John & Mary2 as I suspected). I have so far been unable to find John after 1851 (not looked for him for a while though) - he wasn't a young man according to 1851, and shown as Blacksmith - not easy work plus it seems his sons went off to make umbrellas!

J-A

I've found the marriages.

Sarah Ann married Charles Catchpole - 6th March 1848 at Bethnal Green
Witnesses: Henry Catchpole and Mary Ann Gutheridge

Eliza married Samuel Bick - 12th August 1849 at Bethnal Green
Witnesses: Charles and Sarah Ann Catchpole

Mary married George Catchpole - 24th March 1856 at Bethnal Green
Witnesses: Charles and Sarah Ann Catchpole

Jane married William Henry Precious - 23rd March 1867
Witnesses: Samuel and Eliza Bick

(Jane gives her father's name as John French, coppersmith )

Hello ChristinaS

I like the suggestion but I have reservations because I have a feeling that Jane French (1846) could be the the final child of John and Mary1 - or even possibly the child of Mary (the unmarried daughter - bit young I know but not impossible) but just noted as 'daughter' .

My reasons are the 'odd' order of the children - not conclusive I know but to me the 5 year old seems to be out of order in the list. Also if John married Mary2 in 1850 then Jane might not be theirs?

I think that Jane could well have the same mother as Joseph (Mary1). I tried to look for a death for Mary1 - found a couple of possibles but not positive. It also occurred to me that there were 2 other daughters (on 1841 Eliza born c1826 and Sarah c1828) but I have not found them yet - perhaps they married! Which leaves daughter Mary aged 20 - possibly due to get married? - and then leaving 56 year old John with work, 2 sons and a small child - perhaps marriage to Mary2 was the answer.

I need to try to find whether the daughters Eliza, Sarah or Mary married before I go for Jane's certificate.

I did a quick search for the earlier marriage for Mary2 - but nothing came up - which makes me wonder if Jane was her daughter by unknown husband (or no husband) and just down as French.

Mmmmm more secrets to try to uncover.....

J-A

Jannie Annie, I agree with you that the birth in Camberwell doesn't feel right.

I think if this was my family I would order the birth certificate for:

Jane French - Jan-Mar 1846 - St.George in the East - Vol 2 - Page 121

I know this would probably show a different mother to Joseph's, but if it was Mary Ann Charles (whose father was John Brooker, so that was probably her maiden name) then that would almost certainly be the same John French as the one who married Mary Ann Clifton, as the "John French" signature on both the marriage certificates is almost certainly done by the same hand.

Hi Chris

Thank you for the baptism - I suspect it is one of mine (theirs) - although might not be Joseph but his brother John (who was 2 years older according to the census) - either way I will add it to my info. Just wish they had been a bit more consistent - although consistently using the same names is a problem - I keep forgetting which great great etc am dealing with. Those Norths look like they could be the witnesses too.

Hi Potty

I agree with you Camberwell is unlikely but it does look very good - I am sitting here about 3 miles from Camberwell and about 6 from Limehouse - I know them both so well! But I am not surprised at anything as I just got a death cert for a Woolwich death - but the family lived in Bromley-by-Bow and it is definitely mine. I did see a John French birth in March 1839 St George in East and another Joseph in Poplar June 1840. Although Joseph has been consistently shown with London / Middlesex / St George in East for his place of birth on census records. That is a why I hoped for a baptism for him as I wasn't sure whether he would have been registered as it was very early in the process.

All being well if the information I give doesn't agree with the Camberwell one then I won't get the cert - and should get a refund........

J-A

I don't think the Camberwell birth will be the correct one. Camberwell then was in Surrey and quite a long way from the East End.

There was no penalty for failing to register a birth until 1874. In fact it was the local Registrar's duty to find out about and register births and not the parents'. From this site:

http://www.1837.com/civil-registration/

"It was up to the local registrar to find out about births and deaths, issue a certificate and then copy the information to the superintendent registrar "

Baptism (Find My Past)
Day:25
Month:9
Year:1837
Forename:John
Othernames:
Surname:French
Fathers forenames:John
Fathers occupation:Coppersmith
Mothers forenames:Mary Ann
Birth date:
Address:MEOT
Location of church:Stepney
Parish:St Dunstan
Church address:High Street
Entry No:175
Source Ref:X024/020
Record source:Docklands Ancestors

Baptism
Day:17
Month:March
Year:1826
Forename:Eliza
Othernames:
Surname:French
Fathers forenames:John
Fathers occupation:Copper-Smith
Mothers forenames:Mary Anne
Birth date:23/02/1826
Address:Limehouse
Location of church:Limehouse
Parish:St Anne
Church address:Commercial Road
Entry No:1393
Source Ref:X097/275

Baptism
Day:04
Month:July
Year:1828
Forename:Sarah
Othernames:Ann
Surname:French
Fathers forenames:John
Fathers occupation:Copper Smith
Mothers forenames:Mary Ann
Birth date:11/06/1828
Address:Limehouse
Location of church:Limehouse
Parish:St Anne
Church address:Commercial Road
Entry No:2221
Source Ref:X097/275

(saw above)

Chris :)

1861
NORTH, Thomas Head Married M 30 1831 Shoemaker
St George in the East, Middlesex
NORTH, Mary A Wife Married F 22 1839 ...Maker
St George in the East, Middlesex
NORTH, Sarah A Daughter F 3 1858
Limehouse, Middlesex
Piece: 286
Folio: 33
Page: 5
Registration District: Stepney
Civil Parish: Limehouse
Municipal Borough:
Address: 13, Eastfield Street, Limehouse
County: London

(not sure if Marriage witnesses above)

I think the next step is to try to get a birth certificate for Joseph John - which could be the Camberwell 1838 one. Perhaps because they were in London they might just have bothered to register their children.

Also if John was married to Mary1 and other trees are correct and she was called Mary Ann Clifton, then if I order a cert for Joseph French via GRO naming parents as John French and Mary Ann Clifton and put London 1838, then they will check 1837, 1838 and 1839 - if it checks out - all well and good. Plus any information on occupation and address will confirm it hopefully - as they didn't move much. If parent details do not agree, then I won't get anything!

I will see what they give me then I will go for the 1892 death.

I wonder if the daughter Jane (aged 5) was the last child of Mary1, might need to think about that as I have not included her in my tree as I wondered if she was the daughter of Mary2. If the second marriage was in 1850 then perhaps she was Mary1's daughter.

Will let you know what happens with the birth certificate.

Thank you all again.

J-A

That Joseph and Lucy are correct - bit confusing I know - they like to stick with the same names as on the 1871 they are Joseph and Louisa with Joseph John with 1859/1860 and I suspect that the 1892 death is correct - year of death shown on other trees plus Louisa is with one of her daughters in 1901, then one of her other sons in 1911 - so Joseph had obviously gone

J-A

ADDED: Thank you KempinaPartyhat, I looked at those trees this morning and thought that one might have the two marriages shown - but I think it is the Mary factor. From the information you Brummiejan and Kath have provided I am fairly confident I have read it correctly - John married twice, both named Mary.

Just one point .....9 otehr people are doing this tree or person but not a single one has come to the conclusion that John French married twice

But you m,ay be right so dont take other peoples research as the truth

1891 census:-

1891 census transcription details for: 59, Morgan Street, St George In The East, St George East

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 285
Folio: 79
Page: 35
Reg. District: St George in the East
Sub District: St George North
Parish: St George in the East
Enum. District: 9
Ecclesiastical District: St John
City/Municipal Borough: St George East

Address: 59, Morgan Street, St George In The East, St George East
County: London

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

FRENCH, Joseph Head Married M 53 1838 Dock Labourer
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Louisa Wife Married F 50 1841
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Mary A Daughter Single F 19 1872 Tailoress
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Thomas H Son Single M 17 1874 Carman
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Selina Daughter Single F 24 1867 General Servant
St George in the East, London
WHITE, Robert Relation Single M 23 1868 Carman
St George in the East, London
BAILEY, Samuel Relation Single M 17 1874 Carman
St George in the East, London
BRYAN, William Relation Single M 15 1876 Van Boy
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Alfred Son Single M 10 1881 Scholar
St George in the East, London

They seemed to live at Morgan Street for a long time.

Kath. x

Louisa Jane Savage1839 – Wife to Joseph 1839
His children
Joseph John French1859 –
Henry Thomas French1862 –
Louisa Ann French1867 –
Selina A French1867 –
George W French1869 –
Mary A French1871 –
Alfred French1881 –

Sorry everyone - my computer just froze! Been trying to get back on.

So yes - all in London - mainly East End - that Camberwell looks possible, but did not feel it likely because everyone is usually shown as Middlesex / St George in the East on Census records.

All those other Census records are correct - and for some reason Louisa was Lucy on one of them, but definitely them.

I like the second marriage for John to another Mary (Mary Ann) - because I struggled to see if it was 30 or 50 on the 1851 - it was just the 20 year old daughter and a 5 year old and the order of the two boys John and Joseph on the 1851 made me suspect there was as KempinaPartyhat suggested Mary1 and Mary2. So that answers my Mary query.

J-A

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
about Joseph French
Name:

Joseph French



Estimated Birth Year:

abt 1838
Date of Registration:

Jan-Feb-Mar 1892
Age at Death:

54

Registration District:

St George in the East
Inferred County:

London
Volume:

1c
Page:
351

In the 1861 census it is Joseph born 1838/9 with a child of his own born 1859. Joseph born c. 1838/9 has the same occupation as in the 1871 census - umberella frame maker.

Kath. x

Someone says his death is 1892 prehaps all certificates will give you enough info to be sure its him!