Genealogy Chat

Thanks for all your posts Patchem. Answering your question how I know that is my family on these census returns. Its because I know where my grandfather lived and in his earlier years he had his father living with him - William Joseph born 1881. If you look through the electoral roles on ancestry it shows them living in the same house 64a Inverine Rd. The William Joseph Senior died in 1957. Then my grandfather lives in the house until around 1935. He even had his inlaws living with him and his wife Elizabeth - George and Elizabeth Madden. Trade of Packing Case maker seemed to follow through a few generations as well. Pre William Joseph b 1881to his father William joseph born 1856 is the one I couldnt find but know the address was hardens manorway because 1891census shows william joseph junior there aged 10.

I am going to order some of the certificates you have all advised of and from there I am sure I will find the Wm Holmes born 1817

My Grandfather is William Henry Reginald Holmes and I know he lived with his two sisters Doris and Elsie for a while. Another mystery is that there was a business called Artillery Office Cleaning that was run by his younger sisters husband. I cannot find this younger sister because William HR was born 1914 so she was born after that and there are no census returns beyond there and the business was dissolved in the 70s or 80s and I cannot find any information on it.

thanks again for all your help :)

Relevant, if the right man - he joined the ship at Deal in 1857:

Jos Holmes
Medal or Award: Baltic Medal
Service Year: 1845-1855
Service Location: Crimea
Campaign or Service: Crimean War
Ship Name: Princess Royal

Joseph Holmes
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1869
Age at Death: 50
Registration District: Woolwich
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 497

Would match the 1851 census for age - if the right person.

Joseph Holmes
BuriedOn
11 Apr 1869
Recorded at:
Charlton Cemetery (Greenwich)
Date of death
07 Apr 1869

Mary Holmes
BuriedOn:
24 Mar 1888
Recorded at:
Charlton Cemetery (Greenwich)
Date of death
18 Mar 1888


Deaths Mar 1888 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
HOLMES Mary 74 Woolwich 1d 760

(if Mary above?)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

Chris :)

Thank you ChristinaS and thank you for finding him in 1851. :-D

Brilliantly worked out Astra!

This could be father Joseph in 1851. Living in Sheppy, which is where Ann got married:

Address: Victory Street, Minster In Sheppy, Mile Town Sheerness
County: Kent

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
FOSTER, Isabella Head Widow F 45 1806 Laundress
Boston, Lincolnshire
TORRENCE, Leonard Son Unmarried M 21 1830 Ag Labourer
Sheerness, Kent
TORRENCE, Robert Son Unmarried M 15 1836
Woolwich, Kent
TORRENCE, Mary Daughter Unmarried F 9 1842
Limehouse, Middlesex
BURGESS, Edward Grand Son Unmarried M 5 1846
Sheerness, Kent
HOLMES, Joseph Lodger Married M 32 1819 Engineer R N
Belper, Derbyshire

?
Births Dec 1856
Holmes William Joseph Lewisham 1d 579

I think Lewisham includes Charlton.

You need his marriage certificate also, to see who he claims there for his Father.

Added:
Sylvia posted this one for you at the start.....

I have just noticed on the original image of the 1871 that Ann(a) is noted as married so I am wondering if this is her and she was either entered on the 1871 census with her mother under her maiden name.or maybe she was just visiting and was entered as Holmes by the enumerator.

Name: George William Tucker
Birth Date: 1843
Age: 27
Spouse's Name: Annie Elizabeth Holmes
Spouse's Birth Date: 1840
Spouse's Age: 30
Event Date: 24 Oct 1870
Event Place: Queenborough, Kent, England
Father's Name: George Foster Tucker
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Joseph Holmes
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I05207-0
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2228369
Reference ID:


1891 census transcription details for: 62, Selcroft Road, Greenwich


National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 514
Folio: 97
Page: 67
Reg. District: Greenwich
Sub District: Greenwich West
Parish: Greenwich
Enum. District: 20
Ecclesiastical District: Christchurch
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 62, Selcroft Road, Greenwich
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
TUCKER, Annie E Head Widow F 51 1840 Laundress
Duffield, Derbyshire
TUCKER, George J Son M 19 1872 General Labourer
Charlton, Kent
TUCKER, William B Son M 17 1874 General Labourer
Charlton, Kent
TUCKER, Marian Daughter F 15 1876
Greenwich, Kent
TUCKER, Annie E Daughter F 12 1879
Greenwich, Kent

Maybe??

1841 census transcription details for: 11, Chrisp Street, All Saints Poplar, Tower Hamlets

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 702
Book/Folio: 6/18
Page: 29
Reg. District: Poplar
Sub District: Poplar
Parish: All Saints Poplar
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Tower Hamlets
Address: 11, Chrisp Street, All Saints Poplar, Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
ASHBOURN, Ann F 40 1801 Laundress
ASHBOURN, Josh M 17 1824 Mariner
ASHBOURN, Mary F 13 1828 F S
ASHBOURN, Thomas M 11 1830
ASHBOURN, James M 4 1837
HOLMES, Joseph M 24 1817 Engineer
HOLMES, Mary F 26 1815
HOLMES, Wm M 9 1832
HOLMES, Ann F 1 1840 Middlesex
SIMONS, Thos M 29 1812 Mariner
SIMONS, Ellen F 26 1815
SHANNING, Mary F 14 1827 F S

Deaths Jun 1869 (>99%)

HOLMES Joseph 50 Woolwich 1d 497

Marriages Dec 1876 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
HOLMES William Joseph Woolwich 1d 1476
Roffey Sarah Elizabeth Woolwich 1d 1476


Marriages Sep 1870 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Holmes Susannah Woolwich 1d 1074
Lee John Woolwich 1d 1074

(above Certs. could be useful)

Chris :)

1911
HOLMES, William Joseph Head Married34 years M 55 1856 Packing Case Maker Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Sarah Elizabeth Wife Married F 57 1854 Kent Woolwich
HOLMES, Eliza Louise Daughter Single F 24 1887 Relief Stamper Printing Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Lucy Jane Daughter Single F 22 1889 Relief Stamper Printing Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Katherine Hannah Daughter F 20 1891 Dress Maker Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Matilda Nellie Daughter Single F 19 1892 Tinnes (Tennis) Ball Sewer Kent New Charlton
REBECCA, Beatrice Daughter Single M 17 1894
RG number: RG14
Piece: 2846
Reference: RG14PN2846 RD30 SD1 ED3 SN3
Registration District: Woolwich
Sub District: Charlton
Enumeration District: 3
Parish: Charlton and Kidbrooke
Address: 2 Hardens Manorway New Charlton
County: London

edits (with below, if Daughter Mary?)

1891
HOLMES, Mary Ann Servant Single F 50 1841 Domestic
Poplar, London
Piece: 527
Folio: 55
Page: 23
Registration District: Woolwich
Civil Parish: Charlton Next Woolwich
Municipal Borough:
Address: 32, Hardens Manorway, Charlton Next Woolwich, Charlton
County: London


Deaths Dec 1937 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Holmes William J 81 Greenwich 1d 953


Holmes
William Joseph
Burial date
9 Nov 1937
Royal Borough of Greenwich - London
Location
Charlton Cemetery (Greenwich)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(on above, if him)

I can find only one other possible Ann Holmes on an 1840 census in Derby were she would be 1-2 years old - finding the 1840 one wold definately give me the fathers name - Ann born - Mother is a Mary and father a Samuel BUT they are at the same address on a 1851 census so it is not them

The Ann E born Belper.....Found this on ancestry but I doubt it is her because the mother is a Sarah not a Mary:

Name: Ann Holmer
[Ann Holmes]
Age: 9 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Female
Where born: Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Horsley
Hundred: Morlestone and Litchurch
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

View Image

Registration District: Belper
Sub-registration District: Horsley
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 188
Book: 23
Folio: 17
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Holmer 33
Sarah Holmer 39
Mary Holmer 8
Henry Holmer 5
Elizabeth Holmer 2
Ann Holmer 9 Mo

I havent been able to find William Joseph Holmes born abt 1855 Kent birth reference to purchase and find out who is father is

I found this site:

https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Derbyshire_Parishes

Use google maps or similar to see where places are:

https://maps.google.co.uk/

We think it might be Horsley Woodhouse, so search for that, and then see how near Millford is. (You can use Get Directions for distances)

Wow, thank you everyone for your help.
First off, Ive made a mistake saying the fathers name is William Joseph Holmes. Thats his sons name. I do not know the fathers name.

Yes, this is them. Family homes seem to be at Hardens Manorway and inverine Rd.
This father - Marys husband may possibly shift the family line to Derbyshire!

I think the hardest part for me is not knowing the districts within a county. So I am looking in Millford and/or Duffield in Derbyshire and there is also Henry Field, Derbyshire?

I now have a few things to go and check out thanks to your replies and will certainly go purchase the birth certificate for William born 1855-57

thanks again
Julie

Derek on this site does Parish Record lookups for Derbyshire. Unfortunately, the marriage that Astra posted is just before Civil Registration started, so is unlikely to have father's names.

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/belper.html

(Horsley Woodhouse for Mother on 1851 image?)

Chris :)

edits (just seen reply above from Patchem)

If you look at the original image of the 1871 Mary is marked as widow.

1871 census transcription details for: Harden's Manorway, Charlton


National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 774
Folio: 51
Page: 22
Reg. District: Woolwich
Sub District: Charlton
Parish: Charlton
Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Harden's Manorway, Charlton
County: London, Kent
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
HOLMES, Mary Head F 56 1815 Derbyshire
HOLMES, Ann Daughter F 31 1840 Derbyshire
HOLMES, Mary A Daughter F 27 1844 Middlesex
LEE, Susanna Daughter F 23 1848 Kent
LEE, John Son-In-Law M 24 1847 Kent
HOLMES, William Son M 15 1856 Kent
HOLMES, Sarah J Daughter F 10 1861 Kent
LEE, John T Grandson M 0 1871 Kent

If it helps at all - on the 1881 census, Mary is a widow, born 1815 in Millford, Derbyshire.

Year:1840
Relationship:
Forenames:Ann Elizabeth
Surname:HOLMES
SubDistrict:Duffield
County:Derbyshire
Country:England
Register Office:392
Reference:DB/02/011
Record source:Derbyshire Registrars Birth Index

(above from Find My Past, Duffield on 1851?)

Chris :)

1861
HOLMES, Ann Servant Unmarried F 21 1840 House Servant
..., Derbyshire (Duffield)
Piece: 409
Folio: 48
Page: 3
Registration District: Lewisham
Civil Parish: Plumstead
Municipal Borough:
Address: 4, Burrage Road Clarenden Villas, Plumstead
County: London, Kent