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slightly young but worth a look

1901 Institution: Commercial Traveller's Schools For Orphan & Necessitous Children, Hatch End, Pinner, Middlesex

HILL, Frederick William Pupil M 11 1890
Bridlington
Yorkshire

Oops
That's what comes of trying to see with dilated eyes.Sorry JC.
Main problem with this one is he is born Yorkshire.

LK, really, way too young.

Our FH married in 1919 -- at age 30, to a widow with three children. Okay, he could have fibbed a bit -- but from 19 to 30? He also wouldn't have been on the 1919 electoral roll, again, unless he were fibbing. I just don't see someone 19 passing for 30.

I still think it's reasonable that if he was placed in an institution at a very early age, he may well have been told the details that were in his record there - father's name and occupation - what the intake record said and no more.

I have found an Earnest who is a clerk but no apparent connection to London

1891 census Address: 72, Bath Street, Walsall Foreign, Walsall
HILL, Ernest A Head Married M 32 1859 Clerk
Studley Warwickshire
HILL, Hannah Wife Married F 34 1857 Redditch Worcestershire
HILL, Harry T Son M 3 1888 Walsall Staffordshire
HILL, Margaret E Daughter F 1 1890 Walsall Staffordshire

And he's Ernest A where ours is said to be Ernest William, and he has no son Frederick ...

LK, do you know how many Hills there were in England??

I do, because I'm one of 'em. ;)

but JC it is only 1 year outside of AS's search parameter .
Should we be looking for someone older?

I added the warwickshire one because he is a clerk. And initials are often wrong on census.

Hold on ---

1911 Institution: Commercial Traveller's Schools For Orphan & Necessitous Children, Hatch End, Pinner, Middlesex
HILL, Frederick William Pupil M 11 1890
Bridlington

--- that does not compute.

In 1911 he was 11 and born 1890?

I was looking at the age (11) -- the age a pupil in a school for orphans would be.

But in 1911, someone born 1890 would have been 21.

Was that actually the 1901 census, not the 1911?

If it was 1901, he's another like the one I posted (in Brentwood) who would fit the specs, except for the birthplace, which a child might not have known.

See edit above.

It looks like the same one.

no sign of ernest or frederick in bridlington 81 or 91

From my original post.

He was born in London England.
If he was 30 when married in 1919 he was born in 1889
If he was 38 when his daughter was born his dob was 1885
His merchant navy CCD gives his dob as 1887.

What if he did not know his date of birth. Is that possible. Surely when he was placed in "wherever" whoever placed him would have known when he was born. Keep wondering if in fact he was in the older age bracket born 1885.

Military. To my knowledge he never served in the Military. I think as a child I did ask the question. He was dead before WW2. That is part of the search I need to do. When you think about the time between 1915 and 1919 I have to wonder exactly what he was doing. He could have taken on any of those occupations simply for something to do. , (butcher, house painter, greengrocer etc).

AuntyS

It is almost incredible that he was not in the military during WW1


.......... any male between the age of 18 and 50 (or seeming to be of that age group), and who was not wearing uniform or obviously wounded was extremely likely to be given a white feather. This signified that the man was a coward.


Incredible as it may seem to us these days, otherwise sensible women were so patriotic about their menfolk serving country and king, that they did go around looking for men who were not serving, and attempted to force them into joining up.



Thus ...................................... it would seem that FWH was either doing some job that was acceptable to these patriotic women


OR he was so bloomin' thick skinned that being given a white feather and accused of being a coward didn't bother him!




s
xx

You are articulating something I have thought of and search throughed a million times. His voyage out to Australia on the Orontes was made before the Orontes was taken over by the Navy and turned into a troop carrier. (I think I have the dates correct). I can find no record of him in the War Service Records of the Australian Archives. If he exists in the British Army or Navy records I have not been able to identify him. I would imagine he would have been Navy if he had enlisted.

He marrried in May 1919 before the end of WW1 (Nov 1919). The 1919 Victorian Electoral Roll has him as a signwriter in Abbottsford Yarra Victoria living with his wife Margaret. His daughter was born in South Australia nine months later.

I have been offered this idea as to why the family moved between Victoria and South Australia. This info comes from a relative from Margaret Hill's (wife of Frederick) first marriage. I never knew of his existence until a few months ago. He has a comprehensive family history completed which just touches on what I am trying to research.

His thoughts on the topic.

I have given some thought to the intrigue of your Margaret Hill moving from South Australia to Victoria and back again.
One scenario which could explain some of the moves.
Margaretha married Otto in Adelaide in 1901 at the age of 20. She had a daughter Lena Amelia on 29 May 1902 in Adelaide and Lena died on 5 February 1903 in Adelaide.
Being a young mother who had sustained such a loss, Margaretha and Otto could have moved to Bendigo to be close to Margaretha's Mother and father.
While in Bendigo Margaretha and Otto had 2 children, Fritz Heinrich born 27 October 1904 in Bendigo, and Margaret Anna born 1908 in Bendigo.
Magaretha's husband Otto Uhlich died in Victoria in 1917 and Carl Otto Janitz Margaretha's father died in Bendigo on 10 July 1918. This must have been a terrible time for her.
Margaretha then married Frederick William Hill in Victoria on 3 May 1919.
All that might explain the movement from Adelaide to Bendigo but I haven't got an explanation or reason why Margaretha moved to Adelaide where Dorothy Evelyn was born in Unley SA on 5 August 1923. Margaretha's daughter Margaret Anna and her husband both died in Adelaide SA Frank Jakielski on 2 May 1975 and Margaret Anna on 11 July 1990. I don't have any details on Ivy Winifred Hill.

On the other matter of tracking down Frederick William Hill I might be able to help. If you send me a copy of Frederick William Hill's marriage certificate I will search out all my avenues to see if some light can be given to his ancestry.

And his reply re Frederick Hill. His search results are mirroring those we are finding.

I can see what you mean with the hundreds of Hill's in all the on line records.
I have access to the Births Deaths and Marriages in England from 1837. But the program allows you to input a name (both surname and Christian) and then select a range of dates for the search.

I did this for Frederick William Hill from June quarter 1888 to the June quarter 1889. These periods were chosen as Frederick said that his age last birthday on the marriage certificate was 30 years as at 3 May 1919.
Even with this narrow band a total of 8 Frederick William Hills came up.I have attached the results for you.

I then thought that a search of his father's marriage might result in some cross matching of where his son was born. Assuming that his father was married between the Jun 1879 and Sept 1889 quarters I put in Ernest William Hill in the Marriage field. There were no results for that period.

With just Ernest there were 9 marriages. The only one that remotely gave some joy was Ernest Frederick Hill who was married in the September 1887 quarter in Lambeth ( a district within greater London-London and Surrey.There is a Frederick William Hill born in the June 1889 quarter in Lambeth.

I also checked out the Australian Archives to see if there were any Frederick William Hill in the war records, There were 2 but it didn't seem that either one was your Frederick William.

I think that the best course now might be to apply for Frederick William's birth Certificate using his birth date between 1888 and 1889 and his father's name.

AuntyS, tsk! WWI ended in Nov *1918* not 1919.

Sylvia said what I was going to say about him not being in the military.

Apart from all the social pressure, was there not conscription in England? My uncle who enrolled at age 32 -- I'm pretty sure that would have been because of conscription here in Canada.

What your correspondent said:

"The only one that remotely gave some joy was Ernest Frederick Hill who was married in the September 1887 quarter in Lambeth ( a district within greater London-London and Surrey.There is a Frederick William Hill born in the June 1889 quarter in Lambeth."

I wondered about those same ones myself. Problem is, how would you ever know? It's kind of having to prove a negative: prove that those ones were *not* yours, and if you can't prove that ... you still don't know that they were!

That is how I started with Ernest, though. The coincidences led me to that Ernest Hill in Cornwall and I was unable to find him or his sister Ada Hill after the mid-1870s -- proving the negative, that those Hills did not exist after then -- but there were the two same-named Moncks suddenly appearing at the same time the Hills dropped out of the records ..

So maybe we should do the exercise of trying to sort out that Ernest and Frederick!

AuntyS


your information from that relative of Margaret Hill's does indeed mirror everything that has been found on this thread .........because he's used the same records that we have access to and that have been used!

........... bmds on freebmd and on ancestry, London Marriages and Baptism, etc etc.



but nothing comes over as being legitimately your FWH


The major problem that I can see is that he may not have used both names, or both initials, on documents ................ even marriage or war. It's hard to know if he usually went by Frederick, Fred, F, William, Fred* W, etc etc etc ......... and that widens the field.


Of course, as you probably know, the WW1 records are only about 30% available. The remaining 70% or so were destroyed first in a bombing and then later in a fire during WW2. And most of those 30% that survived are damaged and often incomplete.


But it also seems strange that he managed to avoid being conscripted or serving in the Australian forces, as they were as patriotic as the Brits and the Canadians. (not to forget NZ and SA!!).


Butcher, house painter etc would not be acceptable occupations for avoiding conscription in the UK


My grandfather was 30, married, with 3 children, when he was mobilized in 1916. He had attested (signed on) in December 1915, about 10 days before the 3rd child was born. He was a Master Plasterer and builder.



As I say, FWH must have been very thick skinned, been occupied in some acceptable occupation, OR possibly had some obvious (ie, visible) health problem.



sylvia

Hi and Good Morning. Very early here. 5.00 am. OH is going camping well caravaning without electricity. Not me, I've wriggled out of this one.

Of course I knew WW1ended in 1918. Duh! I am wondering if we should wait until I do the search of records next week and see what I find with regard to addresses and death certificates. There also has to be a record of him arriving in Australia as an immigrant.

Janey did you look at that Cornwall site. It may have got lost in all the posts. Just remembered - on your Smith's site.


I also found another workhouse site to go through. That is still one of the best options if we decide he really was an orphan.

Once I do this search I think I might select a few birth certificates to buy. Ones which are possibilities. Then I could have a Fred Hill certificate auction. Form an orderly queue on the right please.

Thinking Military again. I need to know what Frederick Hill was doing between 1914 and 1918. I know he was on the Orontes for two voyages between Tilbury and Sydney and return in early 1915 but what of the rest of the time.

31/3/15 Sydney to Tilbury arriving 26/5/15
4/6/15 Tilbury to Sydney arriving 19/7/15

So his voyages started and ended in Sydney Australia

He must have been in Australia when he joined the ship. Therefore if he did anything military during WW1 it would have been from Australia. Off to do some more searching, this time from this side of the planet.

when the Australians join the War?

Orontes is I presume a merchant navy ship?
Was not Merchant navy an essential work? Also fraught with dangers I believe. Hw may have just stayed in the merchant navy.

Orontes: The Orontes was taken over by the government in 1916 as a troop ship and held this job until the end of the war. In the year after the war she was used to take Australian and South African troops home from England.

Hi you two. Orontes was taken over as LK said late 1915 actually. FH was off the ship back in Sydney when that happened.

I have searched the National Australian Archives ad nauseum with out success for his name. Nope I am fibbing there is one small record for Frederick William Hill a "request for assistance". I have asked for the record to be provided to me. It will take at least a month for it to be cleared possibly more. It might contain info to clarify what he was doing, or it might not even be him.

I have also sent a message to the NSW immigration people asking for an online search for immigration records for 1915.

There is no evidence of naturalisation or citizenship information for FH.

I wonder if his time on the Orontes was a whim, a between jobs challenge or a way to get to Australia. I wonder if he just left that employment when he reached here and went to Victoria.