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David Hopwood/Mortimer has left the building by 1891:

David Henry Hopwood 26 - warehouseman
Ellen Hopwood 22
Florence Beatrice Hopwood 3
William John Hopwood 1


The family act must have broken up.

Red herring or not, they're fun. ;)

Search engines!

You use them to their fullest. For instance, the 1881 census is searchable by occupation, so you just search for surname Mortimer and whatever occupation catches your fancy. ;)

Or just surname Mort* or Mart* in case of mistranscriptions.

That household of comedians intrigued me, and they weren't there in 1871. So I just searched for the daughter Caroline, no surname, born whenever it was in Leeds, mother Alice, and there was the doppelganger Hopwood household with the same children.

At some point, Alice and the children wandered off to London and became Mortimers. Sort of the comedic Von Trapps of their day, it looks like.

No trace of them on the net that I can find, though.

Just tried searching 1881 for Hopwood occupation coach, but no success ... a John Hopwood 1862, coach painter, Staffordshire, father John, beer seller ...

Good Morning Margaret

I live in Australind, about170 kms south of Perth, nearest City is Bunbury about a further 12 kms south.

Australind itself has quite a history, being settled around the 1840's. Originally the area was going to be used for breeding horses for the British Army in India and the name of the townsite was a corruption of the first few letters from AUSTRALia and INDia. However the horse breeding never took place.

Australind is in the Shire of Harvey and has a population approaching 17000. We are on the coast, nice in summer when you can go crabbing and fishing but winter is a different story with the winds constantly blowing and the gales!

I'll see what I can turn up on your elusive Mortimer from Maryport

Regards

Allan

Thanks All,

Although semi-retired this, morning is one of those when I work so I'll sign off and get ready for another day at the office

regards

Allan

I missed Margaret's Mortimer there.

"1891 census
I found a ? Mortimer age 30 living Maryport Cockermouth"

It's a woman, wife of James Mortimer.

She was born in Ireland, he in India; living on own means.

Now there's a thought ...


Nah, that's right, I already tried fibis.org!

If we could just find this person as a child:


1901

Name: John Mortimer
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Stockport

John Bowen 64 - showman
Alice Bowen 56 - showwoman
Arthur Bowen 20 - showman
John Mortimer 45 - comedian *married*


-- this being the household in 1891:

Charles Bowen 54 - Cheese factor (maker's rep, I'd say)
Alice Bowen 47
William H Bowen 14
Ayah E Bowen 13
Arthur C Bowen 10
John R Samwells 1
John Mortimer 40 - Brewer *single*


I'm just thinking we might have found a brother of your Clifford ... if not your Clifford by another name ...

So ... just continuing my occupation of your thread ... ;)


1881

Name: Alice Bowen
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Occupation: Equestrian (Perform)
Condition as to marriage: Married

Alice Bowen 35
Mary Ann T. Bowen 12
William Hy. Bowen 5
Alfred E. Bowen 4
Arthur Bowen


No husband!!!! And in 1891 it's Charles, a cheese factor, then in 1901 it's John, a showman ...


Back to Stockport in 1871 ...


Alice Bowen 25 - showwoman - married
Mary Ann Bowen 2
John W Bowen 3 months
+ two theatrical actors also in household


Married my eye, I think.


But no connection to the Mortimer in the 1891 and 1901 households to be seen!

And I'm still stuck on this one in 1881:


Name: Joseph Mortimer
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: [boarder]
Spouse's Name: Annie
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Comedian (Actor)

Civil Parish: Sheffield

Joseph Mortimer 40 - a nice round number
Annie Mortimer 23 - born London
Dennis Mortimer 3 - born Sheffield


There is no birth for that Dennis.

But there's this marriage:

Marriages Sep 1877
Kitchen Annie Jemima Bramley
Mortimer Joseph Clayton Bramley 9b 435


And of course there's no identifiable birth for either of them.

Hi EvieBeavie

many thanks for the information provided.

I have located a birth in the Sept 1858 quarter:

Mortimer John: Birmingham 6d 43.

Also

March 1842 quarter:

Mortimer Joseph George Roland: St George Hanover Square 1 16

I will send of for the birth certificates as well as the marriage certificate for Joseph and Annie Kitchen.

Incidentally I have downloaded some historical directories which are on-line as part of a project by the University of Leicester

www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.asp

The 1841 Post Office London Directory lists a William Mortimer, coachmaker, 4 Marchmont Street, Brunswick Square.

It may be a conection but more likely a coincidence. Remember that my gt grandfather Joseph was listed as a coach trimmer.

Could possibly be related, nephew perhaps?

I'll let you know how I get on

Regards

Allan

Do report back! I'm becoming obsessed with circus families hereabouts it seems. ;)

I'll do that with pleasure, after all the help and assistance that you have given me.

I'll order the certificates today so I should receive them in about two weeks time.....I must say the the GRO staff seem extemely efficient.

Have a nice day (night?)

Regards

Allan

Hi Evie,

i can't believe it. I posted all the info and wanted to edit something and pressed the delete button by mistake....Arghhhh!

Here we go again

John Mortimer: Birth

Registration District BIRMINGHAM

Sub district St Thomas Birmingham County of Warwick

When And Where Born 6th July 1858 17 Court (Count?) William Street

Father Thomas Mortimer

Occupation Brass Dresser(?)


Mother Elvira Mortimer formerly Clamp

Informant Mother

Registered 16 August 1858


Next Joseph George Rowland (Birth)


Registration District SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE

Sub district Belgrave County of Middlesex

When and Where born 12th(?) January 1842, 9 Buckingham Place


Father Joseph George Mortimer

Occupation Cabinet Maker

Mother Harriet Ann Mortimer formerly Wignell (?)

Informant Mother

Registered 4th(?) March 1842


This certificate has been difficult to transcribe as the image is not very clear, but I think that all the salient points are correct.

Now, the Mariage between Joseph Clayton Mortimer and Annie Jemima Kitchen:

Marriage solemnized at St Michael's Church Parish of Farnley County of York

Age of Groom 20

Condition Batchelor

Profession Commercial Traveller

Fathers Name and Surname Jonas(?) Clayton

Profession Gentleman

Brides Age 21

Condition Spinster

Fathers Name and Surname Joseph Kitchen

Profession Steward


Witnesses John Hirst and Sarah Ann Hirst


The interesting thig with this one is that Joseph's fathers name and surname are Jonas(?) Clayton, but Joseph is now Joseph Clayton Mortimer

Where did the "Mortimer" spring from?

Allan

Aargh, did I cause all this?!

You don't have to send obsequious messages, Allan. ;) I see the new additions when I click on My threads.


Let me just sort it a bit so I can follow better.


John Mortimer
Date of Birth: 6th July 1858
Registration District: BIRMINGHAM
Father: Thomas Mortimer
Occupation of Father: Brass Dresser
Name of Mother Elvira? Mortimer formerly Clamp

Marriages Mar 1858
CLAMP Eliza Birmingham 6d 161
Mortimer Thomas Birmingham 6d 161


Joseph George Rowland Mortimer
Date of Birth 12th(?) January 1842
Registration District: SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE
Father: Joseph George Mortimer
Occupation of Father: Cabinet Maker
Mother: Harriett Ann Mortimer formerly Wignell


Date of Marriage September 24th 1877
Farnley (Bramley dist), County of York
Joseph Clayton Mortimer, 21, batchelor, commercial traveller
- father Jonas Clayton, Gentleman
Annie Jemima Kitchen, 21, spinster
- father Joseph Kitchen, Steward
Date of Marriage September 24th 1877.



Uh, hmm. I'm not seeing any connection among them. Did I think I should? ;)


Alrighty. Mortimer/Clayton.

Marriages Mar 1857
> Clayton Jonas Leeds 9b 347
> Mortimer Ann Leeds 9b 347
Suart Ann Leeds 9b 347
(a groom missing)

? Would have been just the right timing for Ann Mortimer to have a child just before the marriage who was 21 in 1877.


This is the 1842 Joseph George Rowland Mortimer in 1851, in Holborn St Andrew, with solid middle-class neighbours:

Rebecca Clarke 37
Fredk John Clarke 12
Ann Wigzell 55
> Harriet Mortimer 32 - widow
Emma Wigzell 30
John Wigzell 21
> Joseph Mortimer 9 - born Pimlico
Thos Jennings 25


This is him in 1861, same place:

John Wiggett 31 (looks like Wigzell, this time) - builder
Hester Wiggett 33
Joseph Mortimer 19 - born London, no occupation
(and numerous others, lodgers)


1871, St Pancras:

Joseph Dore 52 (probably Rose) - pianoforte maker
Sarah Dore 52
Sarah L Dore 24
John Dore 17 - pianoforte tuner
Harry Dore 14
Emma Dore 11
Joseph Mortimer 28 - born Pimlico - pianoforte tuner

Ancestry has him as Son, but it's blobbed, and I doubt it.


And it looks like he became this one in 1881:

Name: Joseph Mortimer
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Boarder
Spouse's Name: Annie (wife of boarder)
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire

Joseph Mortimer 40 - born London - comedian
Annie Mortimer 23 - born London
Dennis Mortimer 3 - born Sheffield


There is no Joseph-Annie marriage. There is no Dennis Mortimer birth. There is no Dennis Mortimer in 1891. There are a few Dennis-s born in Sheffield in the 1891 some of whom match up with Dennis-s born in Sheffield 1879 ... for instance, a Driscoll with parents Joseph and Annie in Bethnal Green, but Joseph is a tea cooper. Seems unlikely. There's no Dennis Mortimer death.

Looks like Joseph Mortimer was maybe already married, Dennis was born under mother's surname, but what, ?

The question being, of course, whether this Joseph had other partners, other children, registered under other surnames ... Dennis is about as unusual a name for the time as Clifford was two decades earlier. But there were sooooo maaaany other Joseph Cliffords. ;)


Nope. I'm stymied. Did any of those certificates mean anything to you?

Hi Evie,

No, the certificates didn't ring any bells except that with the information you have just provided I went back to Joseph George Rowland's birth certificate and had a good look ay his mother's maiden name which could well be Wigzell but I'm not sure that it helps matters.

I'll carry on ferreting around.

I'm hoping to catch up with my nephew who will be coming out to the uk sometime in the next couple of months.

I'll get him to check the records at Manchester's Southern Cemetery as I am pretty sure my grandfather was cremated and his ashes placed in a niche wall. From my own memory, although I did'n go to the service, my grandmother was cremated and her ashes placed in the same niche. The plaque may give a date of birth for him

I'll still follow up on some of the other information you have provided.

A big thank you for all your help

I should have called this thread Desperately Seeking Clifford...a bit like the X files, the truth is out ther somewhere.

I'll keep the thread open and post any more information that may come to light....and I promise, no more pm's

Regards

Allan

Nudging up.

No new information but perhaps any newcomers to this site may be able to offer advice

Regards

Allan

But you saw my post about Fort Henry / Cedar Island in your other thread!

Yes Janey,

Many thanks: it appears that the sketch is of THE Fort Henry. I'll do a search on which British Army Units would have been posted there in the corresponding year.

Regards

Allan

Allow me! Since I'm here and all.

http://www.forthenry.com/

http://www.forthenry.com/goat.htm

The Guard has a mascot in memory of the mascot of the 23rd Regiment of Foot (Royal Welch Fusiliers), stationed at Fort Henry in 1842 and 1843, which was a goat named "Billy."

(My apologies to the, er, Welch for that one. Yeesh.)



Totally tangential, but a paper about a military artist at Fort Henry c1842:

http://journals.sfu.ca/archivar/index.php/archivaria/article/download/11615/12562

Hi Janey,

Forgive my late response but my OH and myself had to go to Perth today:
left at 0800 and have only just returned.

The info re a Military Artist is tantalising, however earlier sketches in the pad, and dated 1844, are from Ireland.

I will visit the site you have given

My sincere thanks for your help

Allan

Nudging for Susan with numbers

Regards

Allan