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Andrew was actually born 9/12/1876 Leslie and his parent marriage was1/1/1872 Leslie

Thanks Gillian.

The family may well be found then on the Poor Relief Records in the Mitchell Library. These reords are all catalogue and have a searchable index. Alas it is not available online. Yet!! Maybe someday?

Lucy's mother appears on the 1901 census still living at the same address with her daughter Thomasina now 21 (and whom I can find no trace of subsequently) and Thomas H aged 5, Lucy's first born son, but absolutely no trace of Lucy herself.

Philip

I think the key that has unlocked this was found by Gillian. The Military records have given the information to tie in with your knowledge of the family. Had you had that information on your trip to Edinburgh it may have been different.

If the Lucy that Gillian haas found on the 1901 and 1891 census ties in with the information that you have it may be worth having a look at the Poor Relief Records. Where were the children of John Cox born please?
If they were born in Glasgow then Lucy may have claimed there when he was ill or when he died.

If you are going to the Mitchell to look at the records, it is best that you go during normal hours or at least telephone first if you are going on a Saturday or an evening as the porters are not always available then to bring the from storage to you.


EDIT

That probably is her (Lucy) in the Industrial school then. Also remember girls were often put into domestic service from the age of 12 or 13.

The Cox children were born:
1898 New Street, Glasgow
1900 Same
1903 City Poorhouse, Glasgow
1908 Strathearn Road, Sinclairtown, Dysart

It gets more and more interesting.

found this death but have read through post and cannot find reference to Lucy Mooney m/s Elliot so not sure if it is relevant

Thomasina Burns widow of William Burns cloth sapper died on 22 Nov 1944 age 65 in district of Townhead Glasgow address at the time was 12 Garden St Glasgow
father Thomas Mooney gunner in Royal Artillery dec and Lucy Mooney m/s Elliot dec
death was registered by son George Burns

This is the marriage
28 April 1905
William Burns cloth sapper journeyman age 28 usual residence 251 High Street Glasgow
parents George Burns potter dec and Lillias Burns m/s Casse
married Thomasina Mooney calender workers assistant age 25 usual residence 1 Monteith Row Glasgow parents Thomas Mooney Gunner Royal Artillery dec and Lucy Mooney m/s Elliot
witnesses Thomas Gibson and Mary Buchanan

This confirms what Jacqueline has found re Thomasina's marriage (Lucy's sister)
Lucy Elliott Mooney born 1876 Calton Glasgow
Lucy Elliott Mooney married John Cox in 1897 Dennistoun
Have not accessed the images as that takes 5 credits each

The fact that one of the children was born in the Poorhouse would indicate that Lucy would have claimed Poor Relief. Philip, you really could do to take a trip to the Mitchell Library!

Most (but not all) of these records give information that often cannot be found elsewhere eg a history of all the addresses where the claiment has lived (this can fill spaces between census records). They will confirm not only Lucy's parents but also her husbands. They will also give information on the families income.

Just for info. for Philip As you don't have a sub for Ancestry.

1881

Name: Thomas Mooney
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Lucy
Gender: Male
Where born: Strathblane, Dumbartonshire
Registration Number: 644/4
Registration district: Calton
Civil parish: Glasgow Chalmers
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 13 Anderson St.
Occupation: Inspector Cleansing Dept
ED: 14
Household schedule number: 5
Line: 18
Roll: cssct1881_223
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Mooney 46
Lucy Mooney 39 b. Ireland
Elizabeth Ann Mooney 19 Machinist, b Ireland
Robert John Mooney 9 Island, Orkney
Lucy Mooney 5 b. Glasgow
Thomasina Mooney 11 b. Glasgow
James Mooney 3 Mos b. Glasgow
Francis Bettley 15 Niece, b. Ireland

Source Citation: Parish: Glasgow Chalmers; ED: 14; Page: 2; Line: 1; Roll cssct1881_223; Year: 1881.


1871 Census

Name: Thomas Mooney
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Lucy
Gender: Male
Where born: Strathblane, Stirlingshire
Registration Number: 19
Registration district: Holm and Paplay
Civil parish: Holm and Paplay
County: Orkney
Address: St Mary's Village No 14
Occupation: Sergeant (drill Instructor)
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 29
Line: 15
Roll: CSSCT1871_4
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Mooney 36
Lucy Mooney 29
Thomas E Mooney 11 b. Ireland
Elizabeth Ann Mooney 9
Frances E Bottly 3

Source Citation: Parish: Holm and Paplay; ED: 1; Page: 6; Line: 15; Roll CSSCT1871_4; Year: 1871.

Beat me to it , Rootgatherer!
I have tried to find Thomas's birth on OPRs in Scotlandspeople without success and ditto hs marriage
I suspect that he was in the Army in Ireland when he married and the first 2 childen were born and hence his absence from the 1861 census

Yes, I think he probably married in Ireland and he was still in the army in 1871 hence the reason that his son James was born in Orkney. Probably his army service would have something to do with him getting the position of Inspector in the Cleansing Department. It may be possible to find if he was pensioned off from the Glasgow Corporation. I seem to remember looking at some records in the Glasgow Room at the Mitchell a few years ago and finding details of my Husband's great granduncle's pension from the Corporation. He wasn't in what we would now refer to as a "promoted post". He was a "leerie" man - one of the men who went around the streets with a wee ladder and a pole with a light on it to light the gas street lamps and gaslamps in the tenement closes and stairs.

You have done a great job here with Philip's request for help - keep up the good work.

Hi Rootgatherer et al.

There is no need to search for later details on Thomas Mooney whilst at work early one Sunday morning in January 1884 he was attacked and left for dead, he did in fact die two days later. There was a trial but the charge was found 'not proven'. There is an article in The Scotsman on the 23rd April 1884 about it and there are records relating to the trial in the PFs office in Edinburgh. I am waiting to hear from the PFs office how to obtain copies of the records.

Philip

From the National Archives of Scotland (online catalogue)


Reference Title Date
JC26 High Court of Justiciary processes 1550-1998

Country code GB
Repository code 234
Repository National Archives of Scotland
Reference JC26/1884/81
Title Trial papers relating to John Hughes for the crime of murder. Tried at High Court, Glasgow
Dates 22 Apr 1884
Access status Open


Finding aids 19th Century Solemn Database

Related record AD14/84/104


Accused John Hughes, married, Verdict: Not proven, Sentence: Assoilzied simpliciter and dismissed

Victim Thomas Mooney, Anderson Street, Calton, Glasgow




You can read the Trial Papers with a readers ticket (free) at The National Archives near Charlotte Square in Edinburgh. You can also get a quote (by email) for photocopies but I fear this may work out quite expensive. Copies cost approximately 50p per page but there may be upwards of 100 pages for such a trial. My Great grandfather was "mugged" and the cost for the papers was going to be around £100. I went to Edinburgh and selected which ones I wanted copies of and managed to reduce the cost to around £15. I just took notes from the other pages but got photocopies of my G grandfathers written statement and that of his wife.

Shocking that that man got off with the murder of Thomas. The ones that mugged my man were sentenced to imprisonment. That was in 1892 and when I looked for the accused on the 1891 census 2 of then were lodging curtesy of Her Majesty at Barlinnie Prison!



While none of us wants to find that one of our ancestors has been murdered, these are the kind of events and facts that build a true picture of out forebearers. It isn't about how many names you have found to put on your tree but what you have found out about these people that counts.

Yes, it is sad that the man got off, maybe reading the documents will help to understand why and at such a high cost for copies it seems to me that a visit to the National Archives is a must. I can't leave it now without finding as much detail as I can.

Rootgatherer
Just wanted to say thanks for your kind comments -one day I might be as good at this as you!

Just want to say thank you to Gillian and Rootgatherer for all your help over the last couple of days. Hope one day to be as good as you two so that I am able to help someone in the same position.

Best regards.

Philip and Gillian

Thank you both for your kind comments. I have been dealing with this addiction of mine for over 30 years now - way before even the indexes were computerised never mind being able to sit in my armchair and download certificates! I still enjoy a day out at Register House in Edinburgh, I just love the atmosphere there!

I'm still learning and it is always good to be able to get help with my own brick walls and share other peoples experiences.

Philip, when you go to the Archives you don't need to book but just check that what you want to look at isn't stored elsewhere (then they need a couple of days notice). You need a utiliy bill and passport for id to get your readers ticket. Best of luck and I hope it isn't too distressing reading the trial papers. At least with my man there was a funny side to it as he was pickled in alcohol at the time he was mugged - not so funny though for his heavily pregnant wife who was waiting at home for him with their five young children!!

If it isn't too difficult for you a trip to the Mitchell to look at the poor relief will probably be helpful. If Lucy claimed after Thomas death then the records will almost certainly give you the area in Ireland that she was from. With my own Great grandmother, a Glaswegian who married an Irishman, not only did it give me the date and place of her marriage but even the name of the priest who married them. It also revealed the names of her husband's parents including his mother's maiden surname.

Thanks Rootgatherer

I'm planning a couple of days in Edinburgh early in the New Year to cover both the family records, the trial records and a visit to the Mitchell. One more question - what records does Ancestry have? Do they cover Scotland?

Gillian

Had a look on the 1901 in Ancestry for Christina, Andrew's wife. Found her in the Fife & Kinross District Lunatic Asylum. Have requested information from their archive site.