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Thank you Madmeg, I will do as you say.
Maybe I may never get to the bottom of this, but as you sad he is not my direct ancestor, so nothing really lost.
Will let you know eventually when and if I get a reply.

Your help and advice along with everyone else has been very much appreciated.
Will keep in touch

Susan

I think you'll have to accept that they didn't marry. And as Andrew isn't your direct ancestor, it doesn't prevent you from researching back.

I go back to my suggestion of grave records if you want to see if Andrew was buried in a Manchester church along with several of his children (and maybe a first wife!). There are loads of Joyce burials at St Patricks Church (to my surprise I've just realised that was my "best" suggestion earlier on for a church), but the online records only cover something like 1852-1854. It doesn't look like Manchester Archives has many burial records, so you'd have to approach the churches directly. I've done this several times. Churches varied in the records they kept and their attitude to assisting family historians, but it's worth a try.

also recieved in post today copy of birth certificate of my gt gran who was Mary's daighter by her 2nd husband, states mothers new surname, late Joyce forerly Rylands. The maiden name spelt same as marriage certificate byt different to her birth.
At first I thought yes she must have married first husband John Joyce but am coming to the conclussion that she must have lived with him and used his name as no one has found their marriage in Manchester, Warrington, St Helens or on BMD!
What should I do next, do I give up?

Ladykira
Have tried rootschat, and again no one has had any luck with a marriage for these two.


Today I recieved copy of the birth certificate Mary Joyce formley Roylance, and to confirm to all who have helped she was born in Warrington 1842 in Buckley Street and yes her parents were George and Sarah, George's occupation at that time was Overlooker

Have you tried rootschat?

Free to join and good for researching locations or specific groups such as actors for instance.

This mystery is really getting to me now!!
Can not find any record of marriage of Mary Roylance/Rylands to Andrew Joyce anytime between 1857 -1876.
I have had one birth certifcate delivered as I said previously but did not state any details of the father, but he may have been working when the mother registered the birth, as that is possible.
Why would it state Mother , Mary Joyce formely Roylance if she was not married?
Ideally need someone in the Manchester area or someone who has any Manchester Fiche to see if other children's births might have fathers name mentioned,
Margaret Joyce born about 1866 Manchester,Mary Joyce also born Manchester about 1868.

Need to solve this mystery before I suffer a breakdown due to this stress!!

update.

Birth certifcate of son Andrew does state mother Mary Joyce formerly Roylance,. Father's name Andrew Joyce his occupation Fruiterer.

Now we know for certain that there was an error on the Census, and I am of the opinion that the three son's named were in fact her children from previous marriage.

I hope now that someone will be able to find this elusive marriage of Mary and Andrew, I would assume anytime from 1859 ,

Thank you one and all, we are nearly there

I may have some credits, it's a while since I went on. But I've had to request a new password.

Oh Dear, found 2 Burial details, but are wrong!
One was 1893, the other one 1888 really need someone who can do a look up for these records, so might put a request out?

Nothing coming up for burials online.

The most likely Catholic Church with a graveyard is St Patricks, Collyhurst, but possible also St Augustine's which used to be on Granby Row, and St Mary's (the Hidden Gem).

It's difficult to advise other people on whether they should spend money on certificates, but the death certs of both Andrews could give very useful extra information which we don't yet have. The first, of Andrew Snr, was likely notified by his wife - but it could have been notified by a brother or even better by his father - and as we have no idea who they were, it could be the only chance we have of finding out. The second, of Andrew Jnr, was likely notified by his stepfather and therefore proves that this Andrew's mother was the one who married Sam Glithero.

If we have that information, the next thing to look for is a Catholic Church with a cemetery where the Joyce family might be buried. Ah ha, just remembered, Manchester has loads of burials online, might not include churchyards though. And Manchester has a lot of churches!

Thank you Ladykira, taken a while but know we will get there in he end!
Once again I would like to thank all of you who have contributed wih his mystery.
I am eagerly waiting for he postman!

Good progress here. Well done.

Do I also buy the Death Certificat for Andrew, well both of them father and son? Trouble is it gets so expensive!!

Aha, Madmeg, There was a Fruit Business as on Mary's wedding certificate I'm sure it states Fruit Merchant, and I do recall a family member saying they had a Fruit and Flower stall in Smithfield's Market Manchester.
It is all coming together at last!

I must admit I have a feeling that she was not married to Andrew and as you say being Catholics Divorce was out of the question, as I said I found a marriage for Andrew but wrong name so food for thought! As soon as certificates arrive will write

JOYCE, Joseph Patrick Head Married M 37 1874 Fruit Merchants Assistant Lancashire Manchester VIEW
JOYCE, Lucy Wife Married
6 years F 28 1883 Lancashire Manchester VIEW
JOYCE, Kathleen Daughter F 4 1907 Lancashire Manchester VIEW
JOYCE, Gertrude Daughter F 0 (10 MONTHS) 1911 Lancashire Manchester VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
24158 Reference:
RG14PN24158 RG78PN1387 RD466 SD3 ED25 SN131

Registration District:
Manchester Sub District:
St George Enumeration District:
25 Parish:
Manchester

Address:
10 Churnet St Collyhurst Road Manchester County:
Lancashire

On that Army record he is a fruit seller.

I wonder if this is your Joe Pat?

British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
about Joseph Patrick Joyce
Name: Joseph Patrick Joyce
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Age at Enlistment: 38
Birth Parish: St Michaels
Birth County: Lancashire
Document Year: 1914
Regimental Number: 0493
Number of Images: 7

He gives his age as 38 years 172 days on 28 Sept 1914, so it is a year out from the likely birth I found, but that wasn't unknown for people to be unsure.

So family rumour has it that George Glithero wasn't a Catholic but became one, thus suggesting that Mary was a Catholic, or at least her children were. So I'd be surprised if there were no marriage to Andrew, unless, of course he was already married, because divorce in the Catholic Church would have been unheard of.

Have applied for two cerificates, one birth of Andrew and Mary's, fingers crossed will let you know!

Just found a death entry for an Andrew Joyce Sept 1884 Manchester aged 12 years, this fits in nicely with my Andrew as he goes missing in between Census's.

I also found a Marriage in 1872 for an Andrew Joyce in Manchester but sadly wife wrong person.

I still think average age married should be looking around 1860 ish, and first child usually same or following year?

I wonder maybe she never married him but used his name and pretended they were married as that is not unknown is it?
I need to find someone who can accsess information on filche and do a search but where and who do I approach?

Madmeg, hmm I wonder if they married in Ireland then?

I contacted Manchester Registry Office but sadly they are too busy to do a search only to issue any certificates!

Now, should I and do I try and get Andrew's certifcate, I loathe to spend £9 on each certificate as it is never ending!!

We are getting there!!