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Now nobody wag a finger at me :-)

I was idly reading posts on the WDYTYA board and I ran across this one

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/wdytya_live/thread/1320028

which led here

and I got a little engrossed ...


This is the couple in the 1911 census (preceding page of this thread)

Marriages Sep 1881
BEASANT Joseph Kensington 1a 321
McCARTHY Frances Ann Kensington 1a 321


BESANT, JOSEPH
age at death 65 = c1858 (65 is a very round number)
GRO Reference: 1923 S Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 125

BESANT, ANNIE FRANCES
age at death 76 = dob c1846 (age is waaay out, but depends on informant)
GRO Reference: 1922 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 241

those ages are way off from censuses but that must be them



births:

BEASANT, WILLIAM THOMAS
mother MACGARTHY (sic)
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 134

BEASANT, MARY FRANCES
mother MCGARTHY (sic)
GRO Reference: 1886 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 87


and this one -- this is the child who was recorded as deceased in 1911:
(3 children born, 2 living)

BEASANT, ENOS EDWARD
mother MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 103

Deaths Dec 1883
BEASANT Enos Edward 0 Kensington 1a 78
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 103


Philip/Frederick W was certainly not a child of Joseph and Annie/Frances


1939 register (free search only, my sub has expired)

Frederick Besant 1904 Kensington London
Kathleen Besant 1906 Kensington London
2 closed records (children)

Kathleen's birth year doesn't match the death record (1903), and on a free search, does not match 6 January.

Frederick's birth year matches the 1911 census, but not his death record (1902).


Joseph reported born in Upavon Wiltshire in 91, 01 and 11.
- can't be found before 91 (marriage post-census 1881)
- no birth to fit in Pewsey reg dist

but a christening

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NDG2-WBH

Name Joseph Besant
Gender Male
Christening Date 1861
Christening Place UPAVON, WILTSHIRE, ENGLAND
Father's Name William Besant
Mother's Name Jane

interestingly, 1871

Name: Joseph Beasent
> Age: 6 >> image says age 9, not 6
> Estimated birth year: abt 1865 >> 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William Beasent
Mother's name: Jane Beasent
Where born: Upavon, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: Upavon
Town: Upavon
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Pewsey

this Joseph had an older brother Enos so I think this is the right family

BEZANT, ENOS
mother YATES
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in PEWSEY Volume 05A Page 152

and lord have mercy, here he is

BEAZENT, JOSEPH
mother YATES
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in PEWSEY Volume 05A Page 162

Marriages Dec 1844
BESANT William Pewsey 8 685
YEATES Jane Pewsey 8 685



but after all this ... and all these various variant spellings ... still no sign of a birth of Philip/Frederick

My guess would certainly be that he was the son of Mary, daughter of Joseph and Frances/Annie.



Some of this info is only recently available

- e.g. the GRO index showing mother's surnames -
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

so I wondered whether it might be new to Chevaun. I'll send her a message to see whether she is still on the case. Updates can be fun to see!



(Please don't anybody delete messages in this thread or other old threads. It does not remove the thread from your 'my threads' and just makes the thread hard to follow. :-) )


14 January, Chevaun has read my PM :-)


Chevaun has been in touch 23 Jan 2017.

I'm just going to add a bit more ...


Name: Leslie Rudolph Avis
Birth Date: 21 Dec 1921
(oddly, his birth was not registered until 1947)
Date of Registration: Jan 1992
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Blackpool and Fylde
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 40
Page: 442

Leslie seems not to have married.

Louisa F Avis 1915 married John Murphy in 1943. Three children born Paddington; possibly one other later elsewhere.

One of the children probably married someone with a very distinctive surname, and they had two children. One of those children is a member here:

http://tinyurl.com/zbye39v

If that line is correct, they are descended from Mary, it would be interesting to see what an autosomal DNA test might show as their probable relationship to you.

It should show whether there is a cousin relationship between you and them, at the very least (i.e. confirm or negate that Philip/Frederick was a Besant closely related to Mary).

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/42/thread/1320028

The above thread is from the WDYTYA 'board'

Chevaun,

I think most of us were asleep, and the rest, seeing the number of replies to your posting, would assume 'everything' had been sorted out.
Perhaps alter your title to attract helpers back - just a very short addition.

Then a precis of what you are after: dates, area, names, and what has been found, or is definitely wrong, so that new helpers do not have to read all the pages and all the deadends which can be overlong, irrelevant and boring, but just retain the essential facts.

Good Luck

Please if anyone can help that would be great.

Anyone?

Hi all,
I am still trying to tie up loose ends with the Besant's and Clements in my tree.
I have now purchased a number of certificates to progress my search but am still completely stuck with the births of my great grandfather Frederick William Besant (also known as Philip), his brother William Besant and also sister Mary Frances Besant, as nothing is coming up on freebmd. I also am unable to find a marriage for their parents, Joseph Besant and an Annie (unknown surname).
Any help would be greatly appreciated as i have definately hit a complete brick wall!
Many Thanks,
Chevaun.

Can anyone please tell me how we search for households after the 1911 Census?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Can anyone tell me what info I would find on Military records ie would there be any chance of finding photos?
Also the best place to access them?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

Hi MarieCeleste,
Thank you for your continued interest.
I feel a bit clearer today, spoke to my grandad and showed him the Census and also the copy of his parents marriage certificate which I purchased.
It turns out that the witness on his parents wedding certificate - Mary Francis Avis - was actually his fathers sister - Mary Besant from the Census so she did survive, even though the 1911 says that there had been 3 children, 2 survived... What that must have meant I can only presume was that she was living away from home. Mary married a Dick Avis which could be Richard Avis, my grandfather remembered these details once he had been prompted by the certificate! He also remembered that they had two children - Leslie and Louise and that Leslie Avis served in the Royal Marines... Is there any way that I can view any records to do with servicemen?
Thanks for your help.
Best Wishes,
Chevaun.

Chevaun, the original I mentioned is the scan of the original census form, as opposed to the transcription of that document - the transcriber has mis-spelled the word name when copying the information.

In 1891 the name has been spelled with an extra "s" - whether that is enumerator error I can't say, just that there will always be variations in names on census records mainly due to levels of literacy in those days.

Regarding Mary - would she not be that older sister?

The census returns were done by household, not by family. If she had left home (most likely) then she would be recorded elsewhere, under whatever name she was known by - she may have been married by then.

Thanks for looking into that for me, MarieCeleste.
I am still very confused though...
Can you tell me what original you are talking about when you say that the spelling was Bessant? Do you mean the Census? This may answer why I am having such difficulty on freeBMD trying to find a match for a Joseph Besant and an Annie...
Also on the 1911 it says that Joseph and Annie had 3 children, 2 of whom survived but my grandfather is adamant that his father Frederick (Phillip) had an older sister, who was alive when he was growing up... which would have meant that she was stll alive in 1940's...
I f you or anyone else can advise on what they think with regards to this then I would be most grateful...
I'm actually wondering whether she (Mary) wasn't mentioned on the 1911 as she had left home???

Chevaun, I really think the 1901 is a mistake and she is Annie (maybe her full name is Susanna - just a guess).

In 1891, she is definitely Annie:

BEASANT, Joseph Head Married M 29 1862 Policeman Uphaven Wiltshire
BEASANT, Annie F Wife Married F 34 1857 Ireland Cork
BEASANT, William T Son Single M 8 1883 London
BEASANT, Mary F Daughter Single F 5 1886 London
GOBLE, John Boarder Single M 26 1865 Policeman Mereworth Kent
BAINES, Charles A Boarder Single M 15 1876 Groom London

RG number: RG12 Piece: 39 Folio: 190 Page: 50

Registration District: Fulham Sub District: St Paul Hammersmith
Enumeration District: 27 Ecclesiastical Parish: St Matthew

Civil Parish: Hammersmith Municipal Borough:
Address: 34, Woodstock Road, Hammersmith County:
London

** Name is spelled Bessant on original.

** Joseph certainly varied his career!

** On this one you can see Mary from the 1901 and William from the 1911 together.

Hi, can anyone help?
I am stuck on Fredericks father - Joseph Besant. With the help of others on this thread I have managed to find a Joseph Besant from Uphavon, Wilts and view his family entry on the 1911 Census, I am almost certain that I have the correct person because he was the only Besant living in the area that would connect him to my gene line. I do have an issue that I can't quite work out, the problem is that on the 1911, Joseph is recorded as having three children, two of whom are alive, both male, my great grandfather is recorded as Phillip, instead of Frederick but that would fit as I know that Phil was his nickname, my problem is when I try to corroborate my findings with the Joseph Besant from Uphavon, Wilts on the 1901, it would appear that Josephs wife is no longer called Annie and that they have a daughter...
I'm very confused, is anybody able to access both the 1911 and 1901 and give me their opinion?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am truly stuck!
Thanks,
Chevaun.

You are welcome.
I found the info on Ancestry.

Hi Salve,
Yes you have found her, she is the Watford entry. I hadn't realised that it was as early as 1992 but I'm 100% that that is her.... Thank you so much, your help is very,very much appreciated.
How did you manage to get the details up? I would like to purchase the Certificate.
Thanks again,
Chevaun.

Could it be any of these?

View Record Name Birth Year Death Registration Month/Year District Inferred County Order Record View Image
View Record

PreviewName: Georgina Kathleen Besant
Birth Date: 20 Sep 1897
Death Registration Month/Year: Jun 1994
Age at death (estimated): 96
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Register number: B77A
District and Subdistrict: 2561B
Entry number: 1
Take a look at the picture to see even more.
See more

Georgina Kathleen Besant 1897 Jun 1994 Wandsworth London
View Record

PreviewName: Kathleen Besant
Birth Date: 6 Jan 1903
Death Registration Month/Year: Nov 1992
Age at death (estimated): 89
Registration district: Watford
Inferred County: Hertfordshire
Volume: 10
Page: 850
Take a look at the picture to see even more.
See more

Kathleen Besant 1903 Nov 1992 Watford Hertfordshire
View Record

PreviewName: Kathleen Barbara Besant
Birth Date: 31 Jan 1923
Death Registration Month/Year: Apr 2001
Age at death (estimated): 78
Registration district: Poole
Inferred County: Dorset
Register number: B31E
District and Subdistrict: 4311B
Entry number: 49
Take a look at the picture to see even more.
See more

Kathleen Barbara Besant 1923 Apr 2001 Poole Dorset

Hi there, can anyone give me some advice?
I am trying to search for my great grandmothers (Kathleen Besant, maiden name Clements) death record. I know that she did in the early to mid 1990's, I think '94 - '95. When I enter the details into freeBMD it tells me that the end search date can not be later than 1984...
How do I search deaths after this time?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Chevaun.

Thanks for the explanation MarieCeleste, given that information I'll buy the certificate.
It was the only death of a Joseph Besant that came up for the Kensington area and it said that it was a 99% match, so I doubt it can be far wrong...
I'll be in touch again regarding the 1911 census if needed.
Thanks again for all your help this evening,
Chevaun.

Chevaun, no problem looking up any further 1911, but Patchem seems to be well on the case!

Regarding the age on the death cert - you obviously get a variance taking into account the actual date of birth and when census was taken, and also when he died. For example, he may have died not long before a birthday so would have been 65, not 66.

(But please don't blame me if it's wrong!)