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I have already been given some good help from people and am hoping that something more will be forthcoming. There is only one other tree on this site with any info similar and he has been most helpful. However I am still unable to discover for certain who gave birth to my grandmother, and who her father was. It is strange to think that my great grandfather was born in 1823! (and that he may also be my great great grandfather.)

My grandmother was ELIZABETH MARY MARTIN. I have no date of birth as I cannot find who her real mother was.Her marriage certificate of 25/12/1902 says she was 19, gave her residence as Lestock Place (she was not there in 1901) and her father as Joseph Martin deceased Bootmaker.
In 1891 Joseph was at Brandon St with a wife, Mary Ann 32 and a daughter, Elizabeth Mary, age 6. There is no marriage for Joseph and Mary Ann. I obtained a birth certificate on spec, so to speak of a likely candidate. This did not give a father's name and the mother was Mary Ann Martin.
This seemed to fit until I was told that Mary Ann Martin was the daughter of Joseph Martin, and that the Mary Ann in 1892 was most probably the MARY ANN WARWICKER living at 136 East St in 1911. In 1901 MAW was in the Infirmarty, and Joseph Martin died a week before the census!

Mary Ann W was not with her young family in 1891. Her youngest child was born in 1880 and if she left him to have Elizabeth in 1883 he would have been very young.
A note of my mother says that Mary Ann W was in fact housekeeper to J Martin, whom I had assumed was a John.
I can find no birth record for a daughter Elizabeth born to Mary Ann W.
I then discovered that Joseph's death was registered by his daughter Martha Rae, which led me to the Rae family and to the BAILEY FAMILY. Richard Bailey had married Joseph Martin's daughter Martha. This led me to a descendant who said that Mary Ann was Joseph's daughter and had had an illegitimate son Henry in 1880. On the 1881 census she is living with William Wood and Henry age 1. at 24 Market St Southwark. The place of birth works.
by 1891 she had barried Richard Bailey and was living in Orb St.
SHE COULD NOT THEREFIORE BE THE MARY ANN in Brandon St. in 1891.
Would obtaining a copy of Henry's birth certificate tell me where she was living in 1880 and if so, would it help?

There is absolutely no indication as to where my grandmother, ELIZABETH MARY MARTIN was living in 1901. She was not at Lestock Place on the census.

Mary Ann Warwicker was described in three legal documents as 'widow' yet her husband Henry W did not die until 1935. If MAW was still married, then the child would have taken her husband's name, unless he was in the army or incarcerated.
If my grandmother was the child born in the workhouse fatherless, was Jospeh Martin put on the marriage certificate for convenience?
In 1901 there awas an Elizabeth Mary Martin living as the adopted daughter of Francis Foster. IShe was not living with the Fosters in 1891. Frederck Foster died in 1901 also. He was a lawyer so the adoption would have been done legally.
Would it help to descover where Mary Ann Martin was between 1871 and 1881? Her mother died in 1873. In 1881 her widowed father was living alone and I am not sure where Mary Ann wasafter her mother died. She may have been placed twice in 1871 t 1 Edmunds Court and there are two schools which listed a Mary Ann Martin at that time. The school nurse of one happened to be present at the birth of Elizabeth Mary born in the workhouse. The nurse's name was Sarah FROST Perhaps someone has info about her?

What date of birth does Elizabeth's death certificate say ?



.

Elizabeth Mary Smith's death was registered by my Aunt Rose. She died in Lambeth Hospital Newington age 74. I remember the death because she was linging in the new Warden flats - St Mark's Home. The doors to the bathrooms opened inwards and nanny slipped on the floor. By the time the fire service opened the door it was almost too late. She died in hospital. The was an inquest at the Old Bailey apparently and the Coroner recommended that bathroom doors open outwards, but no-one took note as they are the same in most places today.
Mary Ann Warwicker's death was reg by Elizabeth Mary Smith nee Martin. She signed as her daughter. . On the certificate MAW is described as widow. In 1901 she is so described, and in 1911, and 1915 when she died, yet there is no evidence that Henry W died before 1936.

Sorry, there is no date of birth on the death certificate. It was before that was changed. She was 74 and died 11/1/1959

When you say you have been given help, was it about Elizabeth Mary Martin, and have you had a thread about her already?

If so, would you give the link to that thread please? And I'm wondering, if so, why you didn't simply continue that thread, where apparently all this info has been discussed and it might be more coherent for people trying to follow it.

A couple of tips:

For census info, it is best to copy and paste it from the source into the thread. Narratives are difficult for people used to seeing the actual records to follow.

It is also best to break up your long paragraphs with white space, as you see here. It makes it much easier for others to see the info.

I'm afraid I'm not having much luck following the narrative, but a couple of points:

"If MAW was still married, then the child would have taken her husband's name, unless he was in the army or incarcerated."

Or unless she simply did not report tht she was married. That was easily and often done. She could have registered the child in the father's name and reported either her real birth surname or her married surname as her own.

"If my grandmother was the child born in the workhouse fatherless, was Jospeh Martin put on the marriage certificate for convenience?"

It happened all the time. Maternal grandfathers were in fact a substitute of choice for fathers of children born outside marriage. Other possibilities were stepfather's surname with real father's given name, and vice versa.

"Her marriage certificate of 25/12/1902 says she was 19, gave her residence as Lestock Place (she was not there in 1901) and her father as Joseph Martin deceased Bootmaker.
In 1891 Joseph was at Brandon St with a wife, Mary Ann 32 and a daughter, Elizabeth Mary, age 6."

It's possible that this is the same person and she declared she was 19 in order to be able to marry legally.


I'm not seeing where you've told us whom she married, and what her info is in the 1911.

Right, she died as Elizabeth Mary Smith.

Marriages Dec 1902 ?
Martin Elizabeth Mary Southwark 1d 263
Smith Henry William Southwark 1d 263

Do you have them in the 1911? Okay, I see you have said she reports she is widowed. Her age and birthplace in the 1911?

Thank you. No I have not placed a search for her on here. I only found out this year that she was Martin before she married Henry Smith.

The help I have been given was through the web. When I found out her maiden name I sent for her marriage cert. I then sent for Joseph Martin's death certificate and located his daughter Martha Rae. There was just one other tree with that name and I contacted the holder. He told me that her mother may be his gr grandmother's sister. Until then I had presumed that Mary Ann Warwicker was her birth mother.

I have not found Elizabeth Mary Martin on the 1901 census.

1891

Name: Elizabeth Martin
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Joseph Martin
Mother's name: Mary Martin
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England

Civil Parish: Newington St Mary

Joseph Martin 66 - head, married, shoemaker, born Spraton, Northamptonshire
Mary Martin 32 - wife, married, charwoman, born London
Elizabeth Martin 6

>> the marital status and EM being Joseph's daughter could have been an erroneous assumption, or an error made when the info was transferred from the househodl schedule, etc.


1881

Name: Joseph Martin
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Where born: Spraton, Northamptonshire, England

Civil Parish: Newington
County/Island: London

Street address: 8 Plimsolls Place
Condition as to marriage: Widow
Occupation: Boot & Shoe Maker

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark


No one else in household, he shares an address with a Wells family.


Household in St George, St Saviour Southwark, London, in 1871:

Joseph Martin 49
Mary A Martin 47
Elizabeth Martin 19
William Martin 17
Martha Martin 14
Joseph Martin 11
Mary Martin 9
Sarah Martin 7


There isn't a Mary born c1859, but Mary aged 9 (c1861) is close.


Is that the right people we're talking about?



edit - I see your last post -- what are Elizabeth Mary's age and birthplace in the 1911, please?

The legal age was 21 in those days. In 1911 at 136 East Street (where I visited them as a child) lived Henry William Smith, Elizabeth mary, wife, Harry, Joseph, and my mother Elizabeth Mary Tabitha.

Also living with them was Mary Ann Warwicker, widow and described as mother-in-law.

Her sister in law and youngest child were living opposite them. Henry Warwicker was in an institution and her married sons were elsewhere. The eldest, Charles Henry was living in Chatham St. I had supposed that Mary Ann was staying overnight with Joseph to care for the child Elizabeth. Mary Ann Martin had married Richard Bailey. She had had to give up her first illegitimate child Henry before she married Richard and ti was presumed she also gave Elizabeth to her father Joseph. As his housekeeper it would have been natural for MAW to have cared for the child. In 1901 MAW is in hospital and Joseph died a week before.

The list is buried again! Henry ws born in London as was Elizabeth Mary. Mary Ann Warwicker, nee Scott was born in East Dean, in the Westbury0on0Severn area of Gloucestershire. Her mother was Tabitha Hay and her father Walter Henry Scott. I have to come back on the age when I have uncovered the paper, sorry

Here it is: Henry William Smith ahe 35 born London Walworth
Elizabeth Mary Smith 26 born Walworth
Henry William 8 ditto
Joseph Thomas 4 ditto
Elizabeth Mary Tabith - my mother 2 bn 1909
Mary Ann Warwicker age 55, widow, mother in law born Gloucestershire Forest of Dean

emm's date of birth is 1885. The certificate I have from the workhouse is 1884. Short of getting more birth certs on spec I cannot see any way.
I have approached treeholders who tell me if their relative is or isn't but do not say when their relative was born et. so I cannot eliminate them.

1911

WARWICKER MARY ANN 1856 55 Southwark London

"Mary Ann Warwicker was described in three legal documents as 'widow' yet her husband Henry W did not die until 1935."

What husband - is there a marriage? I don't find one.

The only record I see of people who look like that is, in 1881:

Name: Mary A. Warwicker
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Henry C. Warwicker
> Where born: Gloster, Wiltshire, England

Civil Parish: Newington

Henry C. Warwicker 26
Mary A. Warwicker 23
Chas.H. Warwicker 4
William J. Warwicker 3
Walter E. Warwicker


I think you referred to an older son of Mary Ann, but I don't see his name / birth info.


Haven't got a handle on how Martha comes into it, but:

Marriages Jun 1878
MARTIN Martha St. Saviour 1d 220
RAE Robert St. Saviour 1d 220

I did take note of the breaking up of paragraphs, but the problem is that I am typing without seeing the type because the box keeps disappearing as I type. I

I don't know why but it is very difficult to judge as the 'spring' on the box hides the message. I will try to do better and apologise for that.

I don't understand how Mary Ann Martin, daughter of Joseph Martin, born in Bermondsey, became Mary Ann Warwicker born in Gloucestershire.

Is this two different theories here?? ;)

If you're using the Add box, try using the Reply button up top -- or vice versa.


Editing to add:

1901

Name: Mary Ann Warwicker
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Patient - widow, tiemaker at home
Where born: Long Hope, Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell


I'm going to have to leave you, to do some work. But the records in the thread now may help others to sort it out ... or may have confused matters, in which case I apologize!

I ordered Joseph Martin's death certificate because I thought that, being his housekeeper, according to my mother's note in 1985, Mary Ann Warwicker may have registered his death before she herself was admitted to hospital and it would lead to the whereabouts of Elisabeth Mary Martin - my grandmother.

However it was Martha Rae, his daughter who registered the death and when I looked up the census for 1901 Elizabeth Mary was not with the Rae family.

There was just one other treeholder with Robert and Martha Rae in the tree and I contacted him and discovered the rest of the family. That was in Sept this year. It was finding theRichard and Mary Ann Bailey in 1981 that made me realise she could not have been with Joseph in 1891.

have to run - see my addition to my last post on page 1

Will check in tomorrow -- good luck!

Meanwhile if you can clear up my Mary Ann Martin / Mary Ann Warwicker confusion at all, it may help. I still can't find the Warwicker marriage, unless it's spelled differently.

You certainly have the family of Mary Ann Warwicker correct in 1881 and she is not with them in 1891 and the assumption has been made by other descendants that she abandoned her three boys, youngest born 1880 and moved in with Joseph Martin and had a daughter by him.

There is no doubt that Mary Ann Martin, born in Kettering is Joseph's daughter. It is possible that she may have had a daughter by him.

She certainly gave birth to Henry Martin in 1880 and was living with the baby in 1881 with William Wood. She is down as married, but not to him. I have not yet searched for her marriage to Richard Bailey and think it might be pertinent to obtain the certificate

This much is cnfirmed by the one other tree holder.

I think that she could not marry with the child Elizabeth, so think that perhaps Mary Ann Warwicker took in the child. She was 32 in 18921 and Joseph was 66 and it is unlikely, as has been suggested that she would have permanentloy left her boys to live with him.

There is just one birth in 1885 which I have not eliminated and trhat is an ELIZABETH MARY A MARTIN 3 Q 1885 St Saviour 1d30.

I hesitate because I have bought so many.

I have spent a lot of time on this as it has helped me with my husband's death last year.

Just checking back quickly.

"She certainly gave birth to Henry Martin in 1880 and was living with the baby in 1881 with William Wood."

Could you do as I suggested (and have done) and copy the actual census info?

If you're saying she's living with William Wood as MA Wood but they weren't married, that's not at all uncommon. People just lived together and reported on the census that they were married, all the time. ;)


You're not alone in finding that this pursuit provides some relief from personal tragedies, you can be sure.

Thanks. I'm off to bed too.

Henry Warwicjer married Mary Ann Scott 27/2/1876. He was of age and she a minor!

I have a photcopy of the certificate. His father was John Warwicker , solicitor's clerk and hers Walter Henry Scott, Stone mason. The witnesses were Joseph Ragless and Kate Elizabeth Scott who later married.

They were married in the Parish of St Saviour and both lived at Castle Street.

It possible that Mary Ann Warwicker took charge of Elizabeth and gave her the family history, what there was of it. Certainly my mother believed that she was descended from the Scotts and Hays.

There has to be a way of discovering where Mary Ann Martin was in 1871 to 1881.

If Elizabeth Mary Martin was the child of Mary Ann Martin it begs another question: Martha Bailey, daughter of Richard and Martha nee Martin was16 in 1901. This makes her birth in 1885 as well. Mary Ann Bailey had many children by 1901. There are eight on the census!

Richard Bailey was self employed as was his wife Mary Ann. They were Hawkers, as was Henry Smith. Martha Bailey was a chocolate packer, which goes with Robert Rae ( Mary Ann's brother in law )being a chocolate maker.

Mary Ann Martin was in Lestock place in 1901 and Elizabeth Mary was there in1902, so there is a family connection.

I seem to know all about them exceopt who gave birth to my grandmother, Elizabeth Mary.