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Madmeg, the original marriage record for Annie is hard to read and i wanted to at least get an idea of where this family would take me as i kept coming back to the workhouse records...i guess i was hoping fresh eyes may find a happier family life for my Annie prior to getting married but unfortunately it hasn't.
Their marriage certificate is on order...but that will only give me her fathers name extra to what i already know for sure, it's her life prior to marriage that i am trying to work out and how she got from the Chesterfield workhouse (if that is my Annie) to being married in Rotherham so i can figure out which is the right Annie Holford before sending for her birth certificate.

Sorry to have troubled you all.
Janice

Yeah, its not that straight forward is it. I think its time to send for that marriage certificate Janice, I dont think we can help you without it

It was worth a dig around and I can see why you would want to do that before spending £9.25, but from all the info that has been found, its become quite obvious that nothing will be verified without the certificate

Please come back and let us know when you have recieved the certificate

x

1901 England Census
about Joseph Heath Name: Joseph Heath
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie Heath
Gender: Male
Where born: Rotherham, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Rotherham
Ecclesiastical parish: Kimberworth St Thomas
Town: Rotherham
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Rotherham
Sub-registration district: North West Rotherham
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 158
Piece: 4397
Folio: 73
Page Number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Heath 41
Annie Heath 42
Ethel Heath 16
Henry Heath 12
William Heath 10
Alfred Heath 7

1891 England Census
about Joseph Heath Name: Joseph Heath
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie Heath
Gender: Male
Where born: Kimberworth, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Kimberworth
Ecclesiastical parish: Kimberworth
Town: Rotherham
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Rotherham
Sub-registration district: Kimberworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3850
Folio: 132
Page Number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Heath 30
Annie Heath 32
Ethel Heath 6
Henry Heath 2
William Heath 3/12
Henry Holford 18 Brothrt

I'm a bit bothered about this thread. Janice starts off by saying the even the marriage of her gg grandparents in 1879 is uncertain, so surely she can't proceed backwards without obtaining that certainty.

Marriages Sep 1879 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HEATH Joseph Rotherham 9c 677
Holford Annie Rotherham 9c 677

So why, Janice, is this marriage dodgy?

Here's Joseph and Annie in 1881:

1881 England Census
about Joseph Heath Name: Joseph Heath
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie Heath
Gender: Male
Where born: Holmes Kimberworth, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Kimberworth
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 2 Edward St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Coal Miner

Registration district: Rotherham
Sub-registration district: Kimberworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4677
Folio: 84
Page Number: 37
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Heath 21
Annie Heath 23
Elizabeth A. Heath 1

Is this your family?

Are you 100% certain?

Hi Everyone,

Back with what i think may be my lot only there's a hitch!...read through and the problem is explained near the end...any help working it out and filling in one or two gaps would be appreciated.

1841...Spittall, Castle Donnington, Shardlow, Leicestershire.
HALFORD, William M 45 1796 Leicestershire
HALFORD, Ann F 50 1791 Leicestershire
HALFORD, Thomas M 20 1821 Leicestershire
HALFORD, George M 19 1822 Leicestershire
HALFORD, James M 17 1824 Leicestershire
HALFORD, Henry M 11 1830 Leicestershire
HALFORD, Mary F 3 1838 Leicestershire

1851...can't find Henry.

1857 Chesterfield, Derbys...Marriage of Henry Holford & Charlotte Searston

1861...Castle Yard, Wheeldon Lane, Chesterfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Henry, Head, 34, 1827, labourer coal mine, Le Donnington, Leicests.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Charlotte, Wife, 22, 1839, Dronfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Ann, Dgt, 4, 1857, Chesterfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, George, Son, 2, 1859, Chesterfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Anna, Dgt, 3m, 1861, Chesterfield, Derbys.

At this point i do not know what happened to Henry (snr), he is about somewhere as there are more children born between 1861 and 1873 but i doubt he's listed anywhere official till his death in 1875. Dgt Anna b:1861 i believe to be Emma on the 1871 & 1881 workhouse census.
There are 2 possible deaths for son George...1864 & 1865 both Chesterfield, Derbys.

1871...Poor Law Union Workshouse, Chesterfield.
HALFORD, Charlotte, Pauper, 33 (30), 1841, Derbyshire.
*HALFORD, Ann, Pauper, 13, 1858, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Emma, Pauper, 10, 1861, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Mary, Pauper, 6, 1865, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Harriet, Pauper, 5, 1866, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Charlotte, Pauper, 2, 1869, Derbyshire.

1872 Chesterfield, Derbys...Birth of Henry Holford (jnr)

1874 Chesterfield, Derbys...Death of Mary Holford (on 1871 but not 1881)

1875 Derby, Derbyshire...Death of Henry Holford (snr)

1879 Rotherham,Yorks....Marriage of *Ann (Annie) Holford to Joseph Heath.

1881...The Workhouse, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Charlotte, Inmate, Widow, 40, 1841, Char or washerwoman, Dronfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Emma, Inmate, Single, 20, 1861, Domestic Servant, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Harriet, Inmate, 15, 1866, Scholar, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Charlotte, Inmate, 12, 1869, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Henry, Inmate, 8, 1873, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.

1891 Rotherham, Yorks...Brother Henry Holford living with Ann & Joseph Heath.
(can't find him on the 1901 or 1911 census Derbys. or Yorks.)

1901 Chesterfield, Derbys...Charlotte Holford, Boarder, Widow, 60, 1841, Char or Washerwoman, Dronfield, Derbys.
(can't find her on 1891)

1911 Chesterfield, Derbys...Death of Charlotte Holford age 67 (making birth abt 1844).


Now, the only thing that throws a spanner in the works with all of this is the mother Charlotte, if the marriage for Henry Holford to Charlotte Searston is correct then i'm in big trouble :-S
The only Charlotte Searston i can find for Derbyshire is on the 1851 & 1861 census b:1843/44 Wessington, Derbys. with a Thorpe family...this cannot be my Charlotte as she is married 1857 listed with Henry on the 1861 census.

Is there any way to track down this Charlotte Searston of mine that married Henry Holford 1857 and see if she turns out to be the Dronfield Charlotte b:1841 from the workhouse records?
Is it possible from workhouse record to find out how that Charlotte and her children came to be there, where they came from, why they were there etc...anything to shed some light on this sad affair please!

And many thanks for helping :-)
Janice

Oh thank you so much to everyone that's helped out here...i am now making notes of all the info posted (thank you) and going to go away and compare with what i already have, i may be back with more questions/puzzles...lol

Gins...Henry couldn't have died before 1873 as Annie has her brother Henry living with her in 1891 in Rotherham...
(HOLFORD, Henry, Wifes Brother, Single, 18, 1873, Coal Miner, Chesterfield, Derbys.)...he had to have died after 1873...assuming Henry jnr was his child.

And to answer the question...i am using Find My Past (full Subscription).

Oh and Gins...i am in Rotherham :-)

When you say CIRCA 1859..you must keep an open mind....particularly as Parish records give BAPTISMS not Births...........just adding an example here, which may be unrelated..but the Birth could very easily be four years or even more before Baptism....an very common occurence...........so I offer you this as a possibility:

ANNIE HOLFORD baptised St mary's and All Saints Chesterfield 23.08.1863....daughter of William and Mary Anne Holford.

There is also Ann Holford born Chesterfield 1859..on the 1861 is a visitor in Sheffield.........

Derek.

Here's the mother Charlotte in the same workhouse in 1871

1871 England Census
Name: Charlotte Halton <<Servant....Widow
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Female
Where born: Dronfield, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish: Chesterfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Chesterfield
Sub-registration district: Eckington
ED, institution, or vessel: Poor Law Union Workhouse
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 3617
Folio: 80
Page Number: 6

It says Halford for her surname on the actual census

And this could be the death for Henry


Deaths Dec 1868
------------------------------------------
Halford Henry 40 Burton 6b 201



Heres Henry showing under his 'correct' name. So the 1861 looks like it is the same person (see edit to the 1861 posted earlier)


1841 England Census
Name: Henry Halford
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Leicestershire, England

Civil parish: Castle Donington
Hundred: West Goscote
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Shardlow
Sub-registration district: Castle Donington
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 594
Book: 23
Folio: 32
Page Number: 11
Household Members: Name Age
William Halford 45
Ann Halford 50
Thomas Halford 20
George Halford 19
James Halford 17
Henry Halford 11
Mary Halford 3

Going back to that 1861 census, this looks like the marriage for the parents


Marriages Mar 1857
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Armstrong Joseph Chesterfield 7b 662
Halford Henry Chesterfield 7b 662 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Saunders Hannah Chesterfield 7b 662
SEARSTON Charlotte Chesterfield 7b 662 <<<<<<<<<<


And this may be why George is not around on the 1871 census


Deaths Mar 1864
-------------------------------------------------

Holford George Chesterfield 7b 415



Deaths Jun 1865
-----------------------------------------------------
Holford George Chesterfield 7b 325

Also in the same workhouse:


Births Mar 1869
-----------------------------------------------------
Holford Charlotte Chesterfield 7b 553


Births Dec 1865 (Listed as Halford on the census)
-------------------------------------------------
Alford Harriet Chesterfield 7b 485



PS: That 1861 I posted defo says 'Alford' and not 'Alfred', which site are you looking on?

Births Dec 1860
------------------------------------------------------ Possible she is Emma on the 1861
HALFORD Emma Chesterfield 7b 503


Births Dec 1862
------------------------------------------------------
HALFORD Mary Chesterfield 7b 492


Annie is with the two girls (above) on the 1871 census in the workhouse, it looks like they may well be sisters

Births Mar 1863
-------------------------------------------------------
HOLFORD Annie Chesterfield 7b 523


Maybe she was 16/17 when she married in 1879?


Or maybe this birth?


Births Mar 1858
------------------------------------------Possible she is the Ann on the 1861
Halford Ann Chesterfield 7b 488



I see that Joseph was from Kimberworth, so that might explain why Annie ended up getting married there. Maybe he was working in Chesterfield, met Annie there and took her back to Rotherham with him

Hi Janice

Heres a link to Derek, he has lots of Derbyshire parish records and will help you if you contact him

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1191073


Ancestry has that marriage transcribed as:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
Name: Annie Holford
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1879
Registration district: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume Number: 9c
Page Number: 677

And Freebmd has it listed as:


Marriages Sep 1879
-------------------------------------------------
Holford Annie Rotherham 9c 677


Checking the GRO image, there is NO doubt that it is listed 'Annie'


Which research site has her name listed as 'Annis'?

Records
• Derbyshire Record Office, New Street, Matlock, Derbyshire. Holdings include: Guardians' minute books (1837-1930); Admissions and discharges (1838-1946); Births (1847-1914); Deaths (1838-1904); Offences and punishments (1914-48); Register of seclusion and restraint (1914-48); Boarding-out Committee (1910-30); Children's Homes Committee (1912-30); etc

All workhouse records held.

Ann

Hi Lesley, yes that's the marriage didn't look like Annie to me, i will take another look though, could be these tired eyes playing tricks on me! :-)

Hi Gins, i was just looking at that very listing only the name is ALFRED (not Alford) on the record i have in front of me...there's an Ann b:1857 and an Anna b:1861.
Again we have the Henry & Charlotte marriage.

Yes it's looking like i will have to get the marriage certificate regardless, i was hoping to clarify things a bit more first as the marriage record is a bit uncertain.

Thanks for replying :-)

Janice I will send you a PM of the original of this marriage as I think it looks as though it say's Annie


Name: HOLFORD, Annis
Registration District: Help Rotherham
County: Yorkshire
Year of Registration: 1879
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 9C
Page No: Help 677
MarriageFinder™: Annis Holford married one of the following people Help


HEATH, Joseph view record


PAYLING, John Willey view record

This does read Alford on the census but with the accent of the person giving the info to the enumerator it could have been heard wrong

1861 England Census
Name: Anna Alford
Age: 3 MO
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry Alford
Mother's Name: Charlotte Alford
Gender: Female
Where born: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

Civil parish: Chesterfield
County/Island: Derbyshire

Registration district: Chesterfield
Sub-registration district: Chesterfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 130
Piece: 2528
Folio: 16
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Alford 34 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Castle Donington
Charlotte Alford 22 <<<Dronfield
Ann Alford 4
George Alford 2
Anna Alford 3 MO


You really dont have any alternative but to buy the marriage certificate if you want to be sure your tree is accurate

My next step Ann, have run out of ideas bar seeing if i can find out more info on the workhouse admissions, nothing else to go on...just need to find some contact details for Derbyshire records now.

Thanks for taking the time to read. :-)