Find Ancestors

Good Evening,

I have seen a copy of the marriage certificate (online) between George William French and Elizabeth Smith on 5th August 1888, she is shown as aged 19 and occupation Umbrella Maker (unusual because most other females on marriage certs that I have do not show an occupation). Her father is Charles Smith, a labourer. I cannot read the witnesses – hoping for a clue there – but very blurry , if anyone wants to take a look please?

I tried to upload the image I had saved to Keepsafe, but it was too small and even blurrier to read.

Following marriage, I have her on the 1891 (born St Georges, London) and the 1901 (which shows her as born in St Luke’s EC, London), both with year of birth as 1870. George is a widower on the 1911, so this could be her death:

Deaths Jun 1905 (>99%)

French Elizabeth 35 Mile End
1c 255

I have tried unsuccessfully to trace her back before her marriage on earlier census records (FreeBMD 1881 and 1871) and so then be able to find her birth (Smith nightmare!!!). I am waiting for a birth certificate for one of the children – hoping for a clue there – but it is not due for despatch until next week.

Any suggestions gratefully received, thank you.

J-A

Is one of the wit' James Kray?

I don't think a child's birth cert will help if you are looking to find her before she married.

And bear in mind that there were no penalties for not registering births until 1875...so hers may not have been registered.

Your best bet is to look for a baptism for her.......

44 Thomas Street Whitechapel was address at marriage for Elizabeth

Is a witness Priscilla INES or JONES..?

Gwyn

The other witness to me looks like Priscilla Jones,?

This is a priscilla living at the same address as on the maqrriage record, so could she be related?

1891 census transcription details for: 44, Thomas Street, Whitechapel, Whitechapel Church
Print Close National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 279
Folio: 68
Page: 20
Reg. District: Whitechapel
Sub District: Whitechapel Church
Parish: Whitechapel
Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Whitechapel Church
Address: 44, Thomas Street, Whitechapel, Whitechapel Church
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
JONES, Henry Head Married M 39 1852 Umbrella Maker
Stepney, London
JONES, Priscilla Wife Married F 34 1857 Boot Maker
London
JONES, Henry Son M 10 1881
Stepney, London

George

Good find George :-)

Gins, Gwyn and George - Thank you all for your input on the witnesses - the Jones connection looks good as it was the same profession - I suppose James Kray could be the other one - it looks a short name.

Reggie thank you for your suggestion of searching for a baptism - I can try that, I am getting the Birth Cert as a matter of course to confirm I am going in the right direction and also, hope against hope, the address on the cert might lead me somewhere. Will search for a baptism for her.

J-A

?? no way of really knowing -

1871

RG number RG10
Piece: 408
Folio: 34
Page: 33
Reg. District: Holborn
Sub District: Whitecross Street
Parish: St Luke
Enum. District: 15
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: White St, St Luke, London
County: London, Middlesex

SMITH, Charles Head M 37 1834 Middlesex (Labourer)
SMITH, Sarah Wife F 28 1843 Middlesex
SMITH, Charles Son M 6 1865 Middlesex
SMITH, Henry Son M 5 1866 Middlesex
SMITH, Annie Daughter F 3 1868 Middlesex
>>>>SMITH, Elizabeth Daughter F 1 1870 Middlesex


1881

RG number RG11
Piece: 366
Folio: 83
Page: 39
Reg. District: Holborn
Sub District: Whitecross Street
Parish: St Luke
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 10, White Street, St Luke
County: London, Middlesex


SMITH, S Head Widower M 73 1808 Fishmonger London, London, Middlesex
JEFFERIES, J Head Married M 46 1835 Iron Moulder Lincoln, Middlesex
JEFFERIES, Elizabeth Wife Married F 48 1833 London, London, Middlesex
JEFFERIES, John Son Single M 18 1863 Type Founder London, London, Middlesex
SMITH, Sarah Head Widow F 37 1844 Artificial Florist St Lukes, Middlesex
SMITH, Charles Son Single M 16 1865 Type Founder St Lukes, Middlesex
SMITH, Henry Son Single M 14 1867 Type Founder St Lukes, Middlesex
SMITH, Ann Daughter Single F 12 1869 Scholar St Lukes, Middlesex
>>>>>SMITH, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 11 1870 Scholar St Lukes, Middlesex
SMITH, Antono Son Single M 9 1872 Scholar St Lukes, Middlesex
SMITH, Sarah Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar St Lukes, Middlesex
SMITH, Mary Ann Daughter Single F 4 1877 Scholar St Lukes, Middlesex

Choccy

Thank you, it certainly looks possible, but as you say no way of knowing, although her father (Charles) was not shown as deceased on the cert - not that that means anything of course!

I might just have to mark her as a 'dead end' for the time being.

J-A

A clue, a clue (maybe) - I have another address to research from the Birth Certificate - 14 Single Street, Mile End.

The birth date is July 1891. Would someone be kind enough to see what is happening at 14 Single Street for the 1891 Census please? I have the family French at 31 Northampton Street ,Bethnal Green for Census night - am hoping perhaps Elizabeth went to her family to give birth (she already had one child aged 2).

Thank you

J-A

1891
EWEN, Charles W Head Married M 25 1866 Packer
Stepney, London
EWEN, Lauretta Wife Married F 28 1863
Whitechapel, London
FLEETWOOD, Alfred G Head Married M 28 1863 General Labourer
Stepney, London
FLEETWOOD, Isabella Wife Married F 33 1858
Rotherhithe, London
RG number: RG12
Piece: 311
Folio: 42
Page: 14
Sub District: Mile End Old Town Eastern
Enumeration District: 34
Ecclesiastical Parish: Trinity Stepney
Municipal Borough:
Address: 14, Single Street, Mile End Old Town
County: London

Chris :)

Thanks Chris - nothing jumps at me there, oh well - will just put her on a Smith pile

J-A

Was hoping Priscilla's MN would be Smith, but this is the only marriage I can find. Henry's occupation is stone mason, though,
London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Henry John Jones
Name: Henry John Jones
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Age: 25
Spouse Name: Pricilla Webster, umbrella maker
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Oct 1876
Parish: St Bartholomew, Moor Lane
Borough: City of London
Father Name: William Jones
Spouse Father Name: John Webster
Register Type: Parish Register

Thanks for trying Potty

Good Evening

I just feel like giving myself a headache with Smiths and thought I would have another go with Elizabeth!

Could someone check for me please to see if there is a marriage transcribed (London Marriages) for this entry in Holborn - hopefully Charles Smith to Sarah Wilton?

Here are the FreeBMD results (trying 1864 as the first child was born 1865):

Marriages Mar 1864 (>99%)
Adams James Holborn 1b 701
Robberds Katherine Holborn 1b 701
>>>>>>>>>>>Smith Charles John Holborn 1b 701
>>>>>>>>>>>Wilton Sarah Holborn 1b 701

Obviously not sure if it is my Elizabeth's father Charles marrying but am following through on Choccy's post on 10/4/2013 of the 1871 and 1881 Census and hope to find out if an address on the marriage is White Street - as shown on both Census years

The reason I am going for the Holborn one is because my Elizabeth Smith was born in 1869/1870, on the 1901 she is shown as born St Lukes E.C (although on the 1891 it shows St George in the East).

Just trying to narrow it down a bit - if I try for a birth cert without GRO Refs I am afraid that the 3 year search range 1869-1871 or 1868-1870 with the name Elizabeth Smith born London, father Charles will be too likely to give far too many results.

If any details on the marriage cert (if available) give any support then I will feel more inclined to send off for this Elizabeth Smith birth (Holborn Sept 1869). Not conclusive proof it is my Elizabeth but...............

Thank you

J-A

Sorry, nothing coming up in London marriages for any combination of the names.

OK Potty

Thank you for looking for me. I will keep the marriage and the birth on my possible/potential list.

J-A

I am fed up because I am stuck with too many of these difficult to confirm ancestors - so it is time to take a chance! However before I do I have a general question (which hopefully I can explain clearly)

Is there any relevance in the order that names are sorted and appear in a FreeBMD search?

For example, I am searching for Elizabeth Smith c1869/1870. If I look at the information I have (age at marriage in August 1888 =19 so born c1869, on 1891 Census (taken 5th April) she is shown as born 1870) I am anticipating she was born between 6th April and 5th August . So with that in mind I did my search for 1869 and 1870 looking particularly at London and MIddlesex. Still too many Smiths. BUT, concentrating on June and September 1869 Quarters I still come back to this selection because it seems to include Parish of St Luke:

Births Sep 1869 (>99%)
Smith Elizabeth Holborn 1b 737 (I STILL LIKE THIS ONE)
Smith Elizabeth Edmonton 3a 184
Smith Elizabeth Hackney 1b 475
Smith Elizabeth Hackney 1b 457
Smith Elizabeth Mile End 1c 543
Smith Elizabeth W. London 1c 27
Smith Elizabeth Ada L Camberwell 1d 577
Smith Elizabeth Charlotte Lambeth 1d 420
Smith Elizabeth Jane Greenwich 1d 731
Smith Elizabeth Jessie Holborn 1b 712
Smith Elizabeth Mary Chelsea 1a 223
Smith Elizabeth Sarah Stepney 1c 440
Smith Elizabeth Sarah Poplar 1c 635

So back to my question: Is there any relevance in the order that names are sorted and appear in a FreeBMD search?

I can see they are sorted alphabetically - Surname, First Name(s) but then the sorting does not follow usual conventions (I would expect Elizabeth in Edmonton to appear before the ones in Hackney, and then Holborn. I would also expect the two Hackney ones to be sorted further by volume and page so for them to appear like this:

Smith Elizabeth Edmonton 3a 184
Smith Elizabeth Hackney 1b 457 (457 comes before 475)
Smith Elizabeth Hackney 1b 475
>>>>Smith Elizabeth Holborn 1b 737 (I STILL LIKE THIS ONE)
Smith Elizabeth Mile End 1c 543
Smith Elizabeth W. London 1c 27

Sorry - explanation all got a bit long - if there is any relevance is it because Elizabeth Smith registered in Holborn was born at end of Q2 or early Q3? Or am I just clutching at straws?

Whichever it is, I think I have to order the Holborn one - I cannot see any others that fit the other details I have so closely.

J-A

I am just following another trail in this saga and having looked at the 1881 Census posted by Choccy on the 10th April decided to try to follow the Jefferies also living at White Street with the Smiths.

I have found a marriage in Shoreditch in March 1855 (1c 268) between Elizabeth Price Smith and John Mole Jefferies and wonder if there is an image on London marriages - I am interested to know if her father is the S Smith Widower Fishmonger on the 1881, if anyone is able to check for me please?

Thank you

J-A

Yes the image is there..........

Name: Elizabeth Price Smith
Spouse Name: John Mole Jefferies ....................iron founder
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Jan 1855
Parish: Hoxton St John
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Henry Smith ............fishmonger
Spouse Father Name: John Jefferies ........postman
Register Type: Parish Register


The couple are bachelor and spinster, both of full age and both of Fleming Street
The groom signed, Elizabeth made her mark.

Witnesses William Tingey Mole, Wm Bullan ( both signed ) and Eliza Mole , who made her mark.