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Hi Meg, yes Janey had a collection of Monks/Moncks. She's no longer a member, sadly.

David, I suppose debtor prison is a remote possibility BUT there was no mention in papers and what about the rest of the family?

GRO is the easiest (and cheapest) way to get certificates. Cost £9.25
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

You have to register to order then when you get to the part for ordering the certificate there's a box to tick if GRO reference is known. The details you'll need are on this record:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Mary Monk
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1851
Registration District: Ormskirk
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 21
Page: 630

I can't guarantee that this is going to solve the mystery but I think it's the best shot you'll have of finding them in 1851 (or establishing if theirs is one of the lost documents).

The Monk family ( Lawrence and Betsy nee Ireland) are my relatives.
Married 1839
They were travelling potters and lived in Croston, Ormskirk, Chorley, Longton, Ulnes Walton, Lathom and Preston

Elizabeth ( Betsy) 1820 - 1889
is buried in the grave of her mother Flora Ireland ( nee Swales)
along with a
Elsie L Yates 1907 - 1982
(which could be a married name).



Sometimes listed as Monks

Baptism: 29 Jan 1841 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
William Monks - [Child] of Lawrence Monks & Elizabeth
Abode: Penwortham
Occupation: Pot seller



Baptism: 28 Oct 1845 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Flora Monks - Daughter of Lawrence Monks & Elizabeth
Abode: Lathom
Occupation: Earthernware dealer

marie celeste

thanks

i have made my order

i might need your help to interrogate the census for an address as i have never done that before if you would be so kind

1871

Betsy and children are at her mother's ( no Alice)


Flora Ireland 74
John Ireland 46 - son
Betsy Monk 52- dau <<<<<<<<<<
Mary Monk 20 -gr dau
Margaret Monk 14
Elizabeth Monk 11
John Monk 8
Flora Monk 12
Elizabeth Morrison 37 - niece
Deana Morrison 16

hi mike

i am a direct descendant of lawrence's youngest son john monk b 1861

i have been to the gravestone to which you refer in preston old cemetary

it identifies a lot of relatives who fit on our tree a very useful source

David, when the certificate arrives put an update on this thread and I'll do an address search based on what's on the certificate. Fingers crossed!

mike

i need to go right now

perhaps we can chat later

marie celeste

i was told 15 days from monday for arrival of certificate

Well, it's the first time I've seen a helper on the boards have a connection to someone asking for information.

bye

I have Lawrence and Betsy's daughter Alice as this one ...


Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1856
MONK Alice- 3 -Preston Preston


There is another Lawrence Monk same area with a wife Ellen
Maybe the Alice in the banns belongs to them

MC - it was a bit of a shock to me too

David - my family link goes back to Betsy's brother Joseph Knowles Ireland

Chat later

Certainly a turn up!

Do you want a copy of the newspaper article about the poor child's death? (That's to both Mike and David)

David - the certificates usually turn up in about a week.

There's 2 1853 deaths, and 1864 - here's LancsBMD for ages:

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1856
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
MONK Alice 33 Chorley Preston CHO/15/65
MONK Alice 3 Preston Preston PRES/68/76

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1864
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
MONK Lawrence 46 Ormskirk Preston OK/9/71

Thanks MC.
I have a note of the details of article and filed it until I could prove it was the right Alice.
I never got round to buying the death cert to make certain (yeah I know .. do as I say not as I do !!)

I have so many "maybe" notes about this family they drove me mad.
Lots of intermarrying. Children changing surnames. Prison records. "Marriages" that aren't registered. Widows who aren't widows.
I shelved it in the end.
With a bit of luck David can help ME !

mike

about 20 years ago i used to correspond with a chap called gareth yates who told me about the preston grave

he gave me a family tree of ireland the travelling potters to which i have added over the years

the grave stone is interesting original victorian writing on one side and the other side has more modern entries

i presume elsie is a relative of gareeth yates

also on the gravestone are the words

"grave no 102 purchased 1878 by william ireland"

the cemetery superintendent told me it is VERY unusual for those words to appear on the front of a gravestone in such a prominent position

also interestingly

6th burial 11 November 1899 william ireland WORKHOUSE

also

elsie l yates is elsie LEECH yates and interestingly i have a LEECH on the monk family line << but a long shot

mike

"There is another Lawrence Monk same area with a wife Ellen
Maybe the Alice in the banns belongs to them"

yes lawrence monk b 1858 married ellen aspinall b 1859
had children ellen and thomas

this family are so confusing

this lawrence is a nephew of lawrence monk b 1820

and there is intermarrying between monk and aspinall

narie celeste

"Do you want a copy of the newspaper article about the poor child's death?"

yes please

mgnv

MONK Alice 33 Chorley Preston CHO/15/65

that death i think is lawrences sister

MONK Alice 3 Preston Preston PRES/68/76

that death is baby alice in the fire

MONK Lawrence 46 Ormskirk Preston OK/9/71

that death i have always assumed to be my lawrence BUT the age is wrong as in 1864 lawrence would be 44

David, have sent the newspaper article to your message inbox.