Find Ancestors

Maybe if we have the right birth date we can eliminate other deaths - you need to order the birth certificate,

Births Jun 1922 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Betts Ellen Gray Durham 10a 857

Only order from here (£9.25 - commercial sites charge more) using the GRO references quoted above.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Have you considered writing to social services asking for the information they hold on Ellen Betts under the Freedom of Information Act. If Ellen has died, I cannot see why they wouldn't be able to provide your mum with the information they hold.

You would need to give detailed information in your letter, everything you know about Ellen, the children she had etc.

Good luck

Chris

It's a good idea Chris, but under FOI they wouldn't be able to release personal data even if she has died - it's too recent for their files to be open to public archive.

Worth a try though, not all local authorities know what they can or can't release - especially if you go direct to the department rather than the authorities FOI compliance team. They often slip up, as can be seen from newspaper headlines where they have info they shouldn't have been given access to!

However, your mother could try a subject access request (SAR) for herself (her siblings could do the same), see if there is anything more on their files that they haven't already divulged. Under the regulations they have no choice but to release all data they hold on her, or face penalties if they don't. Authorities even have to provide details of internal e-mails or memo's they have exchanged about the subject.

Baptisms Durham 1920 David Betts 1920 Ludworth
Baptisms Durham 1922 Ellen Betts 1922 Ludworth

http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/

(not sure if you have above)

Chris :)

-edit-
see my next post in the thread
Nancy in Australia was found and I had missed that information
I will leave this here so the thread is not incoherent :-)

***

I just wanted to add in case you didn't know this Janet

the old thread your mum posted in that Detective has linked to in your other thread that Reggie linked to ..........

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_topics/thread/952619

was posted by Nancy the daughter who was born in 1934, the youngest sister of Ellen

I wonder whether that is the Nancy with a double surname who has a tree here at genes reunited showing herself in her tree, born in Easington Lane Durham in 1934.

just search trees for Nancy Betts 1934

it could be that she had two accounts and deleted one ... ?


Oh, this is hard to sort out.

The newspaper article says

'David Betts and Edith Gray were married at Ludworth in 1919. David had a sister called Nellie Betts, who married John B Coils in January 1921.'

The double surname for the person with the tree is Betts-Coils.

Is it possible that Nancy, David and Edith's daughter, was reared by David's sister ?

Nellie and John Coils did not have a daughter Nancy or a child born in 1934.

Can the Coils family shed any light?


she said in that old post that she had been in Australia for 50 years

that would have been 1957 if it was exact, but if it was approximate she may have left England after 1960 when passenger records are not available

This is likely to be them:

Norman Midcalf
Gender: Male
Departure Date: 20 Sep 1957
Port of Departure: Southampton, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Fairsea
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Fairsea' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Sitmar Line
Master: Jorge Petrescu

Travelling with Nancy (1934, exact dob given) and Nancy (1953, dob given). He was a blacksmith, from Collier, Co Durham. There is a marriage 1953 for Nancy Coils/Norman Midcalf.

A tree on Ancestry gives a death in 2004 for Norman at Wentworthfalls, NSW with correct dob. However, there are only 2 people in the tree, Norman & Nancy and the owner is inactive.

I am editing this out (information from the internet about Nancy's child in NSW)

because I realized I was neglectful in reading the thread and missed this bit

'Part of Ellens family was last name Gray. One of Ellens siblings was abandonded as a child and was taken in by a family last name COILS (whom we found living in Australia thanks to Genes).'

so Janet and her family are in touch with Nancy and that is great news.

There are very few deaths for the name Ellen with dob either 3 or 6 June 1922.

6 June

- Ellen Healey M A W...n died Lincolnshire 2003 married as R...y
- Maggie Ellen S...e died Croydon 1990 ... seems unlikely ... but could have been Margaret E H...s or Margery E P...r ... a Maggie E was reg in Croydon Q3 1922 and married young (and death could have been registered under unofficial partner's surname)
- Ellen Smith died Tameside 1999 ... well ... a certificate would be needed there

3 June

- Marjorie Ellen B...k died Harlow 2001 married as T...d 1943
- Ellen Kathleen B...d died Lewisham 1995 married as M...y 1941

(those are speculation but seem sound)

I would think it quite likely that when Ellen's death was registered, if she is deceased, the informant did not know her correct date of birth

The other possibility is that she died before 1970, and at that time exact dob was not recorded on the death certificate.

The brother who was a toddler in the early 50s whom your mother has been reunited with ... does his birth certificate provide any clue? father's name, did Ellen use her real name on the certificate?

I am sure these are all things you have looked into ...

DOB is Deffo 3rd June my mum has her birth cert.

She has also researched the following marriages and has the certs and ruled them out -

James Patrick Foy married Ellen Betts age 39 years widow 12th Dec 1968 father’s name George Darwent (deceased) her name was originally Darwent.

Alfred Hallam Widower aged 71 years married Ellen Betts aged 45 years on 3rd Dec 1946 (cannot be them)

Colin Makin aged 22 years Batchelor married Ellen Betts aged 21 years Spinster married 8th Dec 1962 (no)

George Ward aged 72 years widower married Ellen Betts aged 65 years Widow married 3rd March 1952 (No)

James Reverly aged 20 years Bachelor married Ellen Betts aged 22 years Spinster married 14th Dec 1940 (no)

William Francis Betts aged 35 years Bachelor married Ellen Betts aged 37 years 31st Jan 1942 (no)

Willfred Peasley aged 33 years bachelor married Ellen Betts aged 23 years married 9th August 1951...this one is difficult cos I cannot make out if the age is 28 or 23 years of age..however I discovered that her full name was Ellen Francis Betts and her father’s name was given as well as profession....so its not her.

Joonie - you are right about The COIL family. They took in some of the Gray/Betts children as they abondened them. Nancy has been found in Australia and she said had the COILS known about the Betts children in the childrens homes they would have taken them in. They had no idea, all they knew was the Ellen had been locked away and had none of the family spoke of the Ellen having any children.

Joonie - The toddler (my uncle Harold) his birth certs was registered under Betts, with no father given.

He was taken in by the HORROCKS family and believed that was his name until he tried to get a passport and saw his birth certificate.

We have been unable to get information from the county on Ellen as we cannot produce a death certificate for her.

My mother requested her records and got very little. Just a few old Social Services records referring to "inner files" which had all been destroyed.

There was a transcript there detailing how my mother had asked about her sister Rose who she had met in the childrens homes and about her mother or family and they made a decision after a meeting not to tell tell about her family, siblings, mother or parentage. :-(

So Ellen was admitted to hosp on 2 Dec 1947 in Durham? and Harold was born in Q4 1948 in Manchester. Either she wasn't in hospital long, or again she became pregnant while there. One can only hope that she was acting voluntarily, and not being exploited or left unprotected from abuse ...

He grew up in Manchester then? ie that is where the Horrocks were? ... I think not since it was Durham where Ellen was hospitalized again when she was taken away?

Just trying to sort out her last known location ... the hospital in Durham presumably but if she had Harold in Manchester and if she was living there when she was sent back to hospital ... ?

(I'm wondering whether you might edit out some of the personal details in that list of marriages ... a couple of those people are most likely living and that really is personal information about people who haven't asked to have it published ... just the date and place of the Ellen Betts marriage in each case and the fact that you have the certificate showing it would not have been her would be enough?)

I've had a PM from Janet, she is getting nowhere with the authorities and still needs help if anyone can help any further...........

this is a very sad story..... the Coils going to Australia nearly met my dad and his family going to Australia.. My dad is from durham and went to Australia on the same ship the Fairsea... only in December 1957 while the Coils went in September 1957 ... small world.....

I hope we find out what happens when the certificate turns up....