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Definitely...............

Good morning, I have just received copy of birth cert for "Kathleen Mullan" which reads as follows:
2) Date and place of birth - 15th April 1912 IRISHTOWN
3) Name - KATHLEEN
4) Sex - FEMALE
5) Name etc of father - Nothing written just a dash in this column.........
6) Name surname and maiden name of mother - MARGARET MULLAN with a
line through "formerly" and " a Domestic Servant " in this column
7) Rank or profession of father - Again, nothing but a dash.
8) Signature, qualification and residence of informant - MARY ANN BROWN,
present at birth, IRISHTOWN
9) When registered - 10th May 1912

Am I to assume she was illegitimate?

Feel like its not much help really.

Sorry that you couldn't get the cert from the site I gave - I mentioned that one as I know that the MMN is required for certs from Northern Ireland but didn't think it was from Eire.

As you have found Annie as Ash in 1946, before her marriage (which was in 1949 not1947), there could be more than one reason for the Armstrong. She may have married an Armstrong but for some reason used the name Ash.

Marriages Sep 1949
Armstrong Annie E Harris Westminster 5c 1143
ASH Annie E Harris Westminster 5c 1143


The marriage cert will give you her father's name, which presumably will be the same as Kathleen's.

Thank you all again,

The web site suggested by Potty for Kathleen's birth certificate needs mothers name, as do most others I have looked at, but found bmd-certificates.co.uk so now await document from them,

I did find one record for James S Cooper and Kathleen Cooper in electoral registers for them living together in 1947 at 4W Peabody Blgs.

I have also discovered record of marriage of Kathleen's sister Annie and W T Harris in Q3 1947, Westminster and she was recorded as having surname "Ash or Armstrong" why would this be please, I went on to find Annie Ash living with Jame Stanley and Kathleen Cooper in 1946 iat 59 Lillington Street (Westminster) .
Maggie

OP = original poster (in this instance)

OP = opening post.

Although the birth was in Northern Ireland as it was before partition you can order the cert from Eire online - easier than from Northern Ireland. The site below gives details:

http://www.gov.ie/services/buy-a-birth-certificate/

Your last set of details could fit as my husband was 3 or 4 y.o. when his father died.
He died in sanatorium from TB which may account for his death being in Hackney.
I will get copy of death certificate.

Now for Kathleen, I feel the record of a birth in Omagh is right as the birth date fits and her family lived in Omagh - can anyone tell me how to obtain a copy of her birth certificate in Ireland please?

Please forgive my ignorance but what does 'OP' stand for?

Many thanks again - I feel things are progressing.

OR............if the original message is meant to say the the man died young (as opposed to the woman)

Death
Name: COOPER, James S
Registration district: Hackney
County: London
Year of registration: 1948
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death:52
Volume no: 5C
Page no: 563

This would fit with the info provided later by the OP, at least by timescale.
I have no idea of the postal district area

Suggestion ONLY

Death
Name: COOPER, James Stanley
Registration district: Hillingdon
County: London
Year of registration: 1989
Month of registration: February
Date of Birth:8 October 1901
Volume no: 13
Page no: 809
Reg no: 289

OR................


Death

Name: COOPER, James Stanley
Registration district: [Staincliffe
County: Yorkshire
Year of registration: 1980
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Date of Birth:12 March 1905
Volume no: 2
Page no: 2686


OR

Death
Name: COOPER, James Stanley
Registration district: Gravesend
County: Kent
Year of registration: 1991
Month of registration: June
Date of Birth:10 September 1916
Volume no: 16
Page no: 1014
Reg no: 691

OR

Death
Name: COOPER, James Stanley
Registration district: Bath
County: Somerset
Year of registration: 1992
Month of registration: January
Date of Birth:5 January 1923
Volume no: 22
Page no: 309
Reg no: 192

So the search should be for JAMES Cooper..............

If you have any feedback, Margaret.....use the large white box which has the title 'Add your reply'

Not finding a birth on scotlandspeople for a James Stanley Cooper.

PM from Margaret:

Hi, I have received copy of my husbands birth certificate, details follow:
Where & when born - 9/4/43 RIPLEY COURT, RIPLEY RD
Name - LIONEL
Name & surname of father - JAMES STANLEY COOPER
Name, surname and maiden name of mother - KATHLEEN COOPER formerly MULLIN
Occupation of father - LANDSCAPE GARDENER of 8M PEABODY AVE,SW1
Informant - K COOPER, MOTHER of 8M PEABODY AVE SW1

The only record I can find of James Stanley Cooper was according to electoral records they were together in 1947 at 4W Peabody Blgs, SW1 and Kathleen was recorded at this address until she moved to 8B Peabody Blgs in 1960's. This was where I first met the family in 1964.

Does this help at all?

Maggie

ah true, both the marriage and the 1936 birth (the first child) are not found and so were likely elsewhere than England, and NI is the logical assumption

No, JoonieCloonie, I cannot find the 1936 birth. With Stanley having been born in Scotland and Kathleen in Ireland, the birth could have taken place in either of those. Nothing coming up on scotlandspeople and I cannot find BMD records for that time for NI.

Margaret has PMd me that the siblings are all still living and that she is sending for Lionel's full birth cert.

there is no death post-1969 (when middle names started to be recorded in the index) for a woman with middle name Bates born 1936, just for info

surname as middle name often reflects the father's surname, usually where the mother is not married, but could be where she is married and therefore having to register the child in her husband's surname

the 1941 birth, Cooper with mother Bates ... suggests the opposite, that she was not married to Cooper, but to Bates, and used Bates as her birth surname to avoid acknowledging that she was married ........... hm!

I can't find a female birth 1935-37 with middle initial B and mother's surname Mull*n.

I don't suppose the child might have been born 1935 in Warwickshire, named for her mother, and the mother was calling herself Mulligan ?! Registered first under mother's name and later under father's name apparently ...

The following is some extra info that Maggie has PMd me - I have omitted the children's names as they may still be living:

My husband (Lionel Cooper's dob was 9/4/43 born in Ruislip Middx, I was told. because of war mum-in-law was moved out of London for the birth. He only had short version of birth cert but know mother's maiden name was Mullen she was born 1915 and died 1982 in St Thomas's hospital, London..
There were 4 children, female Cooper born Dec 1936, female Cooper born July1938, Male Cooper born 1941 then Lionel April 1943.
I am sure there are 'skeletons in the cupboard' which were regarded as taboo in the past. However no one will talk to me about it even in these times, which is sad really.
I really do appreciate any help or advice you can give to a novice such as me.

The girl b1936 had the middle name Bates ; I cannot find a birth for her with Cooper as surname but I can find a birth for the boy born 1941 with the MMN Bates (nothing for Mullin).

I have PMd Maggie to ask if these children are still living so that I can post the names. I have also suggested that she get Lionel's full birth cert to see what other surnames his mother may have had.

You are all so brilliant!

Thank You!

variations on her name obviously cause problems, will check out suggested records

it was wartime ... could Kathleen have been already married ?

for instance

Marriages Jun 1941
Cairns Arthur Mullen Westminster 1a 1051
MULLEN Kathleen Cairns Westminster 1a 1051

assuming that Kathleen Mullen in that marriage had not been previously married, there are no Cairns-Mullen births to the marriage

this is the death that most closely matches the info given (knowing now that Margaret's husband was Lionel 1943)

Name: Stanley R Cooper
Birth Date: abt 1914
Date of Registration: Sep 1947
Age at Death: 33
Registration District: Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 403

and that could match a birth posted above

3 1914 COOPER STANLEY ROBERTS M ST CLEMENT DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS

4 1914 COOPER STANLEY RUSSELL M CATHCART (LANARK) GLASGOW CITY/LANARK

(Roberts/Russell are the mothers' surnames though? but not uncommon for a Scot to include mother's surname in name ... my ancestor did it when he married in Scotland even though he was English and his mother's surname was not part of his own name)

what I mentioned in the other thread

Margaret's husband

Births Jun 1943
Cooper Lionel MULLIN Surrey S.W. 2a 986


I also mentioned the possible births for Kathleen including the one posted above (Margaret has her in her tree as born 1915, not as stated in this thread) and the Westminster death is indeed a good match and also matches with the Pimlico location given for Kathleen's sister Annie Harris in the 1980s