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Frederick Osborne

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John

John Report 3 Nov 2017 23:20

I need help please I think I latched on to the wrong Frederick Osborne who married Daisy Summers because I can't find a daughter Margaret with mothers maiden name of Summers. Is it possible to find where Frederick Osborne lived in Gravesend Kent after 1935. I have just received a marriage certificate for daughter Margaret Osborne to Charles Henry Butcher in 1935 stating her age 19 yrs old, living 81 Darnley Road Gravesend,her father Frederick Osborne. Filling in the tree I realise the Frederick Osborne married to Daisy Summers was born 1902 so that isn't him at all because daughter Margaret would have been born in 1916.

greyghost

greyghost Report 3 Nov 2017 23:26

Original thread

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1368948

Nyx

Nyx Report 3 Nov 2017 23:29

Carry on on your original thread John, I did wonder because of the age on the 1939 reg and the spelling.

John

John Report 3 Nov 2017 23:36

Sorry Nyx, I didn't think anyone would pick the message up on the Summers thread, should I go back on to that thread then

Nyx

Nyx Report 3 Nov 2017 23:40

I would John as it has the 1939 details there to cross check with, I'll post on there now :-)

John

John Report 3 Nov 2017 23:44

OK thank you Ny, just taken a look on there and I don't think it's the same family for Margaret

John

John Report 7 Dec 2017 23:52

Can anyone help me please regarding an adoption. I have established that it was not Frederick Osborne that I wanted but a Clarence Frederick Osborne who married Dorothy Margaret Smith in Rochford 1919. Dorothy had a daughter Margaret b Rochford 1917 but I couldn't find her under Osborne, only Smith, yet on her marriage certificate in 1935 she was down as Margaret Osborne and gave her father as being Frederick Osborne, by law could she have done this so I wonder if she was adopted

Nyx

Nyx Report 7 Dec 2017 23:53

Hi John, yes there's no reason why Margaret wouldn't have been able to use the Osbourne name. It's the name she was known by it would seem, and I don't think a birth cert would have been asked for to show differently.

Formal adoption didn't start until 1927, so there isn't likely to be any paperwork even if Clarence F did 'adopt' Margaret. It's common to see children take step father's name on the census' and they may or may not marry under that name.

John

John Report 8 Dec 2017 00:09

Hi Nyx, many thanks for your reply, still doing this Osborne line as you can see.Obviously Margaret always called herself Osborne and that is what the family knew her as. I can only go down the Smith line for her and her mother Dorothy . I have sent for the birth cert for Margaret so no doubt it will be father Unknown. I have gone down Clarence Frederick Osborne line so can give that to my friend even though she wasn't an Osborne. Just wondered if she was legally adopted that's all. I did notice when I received the marriage cert for Dorothy Margaret Osborne to Donald Small in 1944 that one of the witnesses was a John Osborne, unsure if he was a son or a relation to Clarence F Osborne

Nyx

Nyx Report 8 Dec 2017 00:34

Not coming up with anything on John Osborne, but as there are quite a few Osbornes in the area it's hard to tell.

John

John Report 9 Dec 2017 00:17

I had the same problem, I wondered if he could have been a brother of Clarence F and he had kept in touch with Dorothy because it looks like Clarence went to the Brighton area and had another family, I don't think he and Dorothy got divorced but then she remarried the year before Clarence F died

John

John Report 9 Dec 2017 00:32

Nyx. I have just had another look and found a John Osborne b Dec1928 Dartford mother Smith, this could be a strong possibility that he was a son of C F and D M Osborne, , who by then could have left Southend and living in Dartford or Gravesend.

Nyx

Nyx Report 9 Dec 2017 09:18

Morning John I looked at that one, but discounted him from being the witness on the marriage cert in 1944 as he would only have been 16/17 and I would have assumed a witness would have to be of full age which would have been 21? Perhaps worth finding out if a witness had to be an adult?

John

John Report 9 Dec 2017 11:52

Good day to you Nyx. I hadn't thought of that, will have to find if any age limit. I have found the following, Bearing in mind Clarence F Osborne and Dorothy M Smith married in 1919, there is a Dorothy M Osborne b Sept 1920 Croydon mother Smith , Then of course perhaps John Osborne b 1928 Dartford and Esme b Sept 1929 Dartford mother Smith, Just wonder if these 3 were their children. I now acknowledge that Margaret the 1st born to Dorothy was registered as Smith but called herself Osborne. When there are complications like this how I wish I was a fly on the wall, 3 yrs is a long time to wait until the 1921 census to come out when getting older

Nyx

Nyx Report 9 Dec 2017 12:28

John I'm waiting for the 1921 also :-) to see who one of my grandfathers was living with , 'wife' number two or someone completely different .

I think this may be the John Osborne born 1928 mmn Smith

Household (7 People)
Kestonct Farm Caravan Church Road , Orpington U.D., Kent, England

Grace Osborne - Female Farm Field Work Married 10 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
John Osborne 27 Nov 1928 Male Not At School Single 10 3
Grace Osborne 03 Jun 1933 Female Not At School Single 10 4
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Frederick Osborne - Male Under School Age Single 10 7

Marriages Mar 1928 (>99%)

Osborne John Smith Bromley 2a 864
SMITH Grace Osborne Bromley 2a 864

John

John Report 10 Dec 2017 20:26

Now you have found something very interesting because when I said I would do his dear departed wife's line , his words to me was they were all travellers and lived in Southend, Seeing what you have found now has hit the nail on the head, living in a caravan!,!! I found a Dorothy Margaret Smith living in Southend but there is no Grace listed on the 1911 census, so she couldn't be a sister of Dorothy. Maybe she was a cousin

Nyx

Nyx Report 10 Dec 2017 20:51

John it's just very frustrating that Grace's birth date is not on the register. I'm surprised at that but maybe she just didn't know it?

John

John Report 10 Dec 2017 21:04

Nyx. I am getting anxious now about receiving the birth cert for Margaret Smith who called herself Osborne with mother of Smith and hopefully it will tell me where mother ? Smith lived, perhaps I have latched on to the wrong Smith living in Southend. I am dependant on the information my friend can give me about his wife's family. I had latched onto the wrong Lewis family for 2 yrs before the 1911 census was released and I found my great Aunt who was born after 1901. I am 80 now so I just hope Lady Luck is kind to me until the 1921 is out, haha

Nyx

Nyx Report 10 Dec 2017 21:35

Hopefully the birth cert will help.

I had a look for deaths for a Grace Osborne, in Kent, but if they were travellers they may have moved out of county after 1939, and there are so many Grace Smiths!

Deaths Mar 1966 (>99%)
OSBORNE GRACE 68 CROYDON 5A 939

Deaths Jun 1968 (>99%)
OSBORNE GRACE 73 THANET 5F 714

Deaths Jun 1972 (>99%)
Osborne Grace 8No1914 Lewisham 5d 614

Deaths Dec 1973 (>99%)
OSBORNE GRACE 17JE1892 CANTERBURY 5F 326

John

John Report 10 Dec 2017 23:23

Nyx. Looking at the 1939 register. It states 7 people in Caravan. I have been looking at births for Osborne mmn Smith came up with the following. John Osborne Dec 1928 Dartford, you found his birth as 27 Nov 1928 so could be the one. Esme b 1929 Dartford. Billy Osborne b 1931 Bromley, Grace b June Bromley Frederick b 1936 Bromley so that makes 5 children + Mother Grace and the 7th possibly Father John Osborne. You had 7 listed. . It must have been father John Osborne who was the witness at the wedding of Dorothy M Osborne nee Smith to Donald Small. they would have been of similar age.