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Isaac Gabriel

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marjorie

marjorie Report 29 Nov 2017 20:02

I hope someone can help me with Isaac he was born in Poland in 1842 I believe he became a naturalised British citizen some time between between1871 and 1891. He lived his life in London owning a drapers shop there. On all census forms his wife was Julia but I can find no marriage record. He died 1905 at Woolwich. I have his descendants up to the present day. His first of 5 children Hilda was born 1873. How will I find Isaacs past?

Marjorie

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 20:30

for ref

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
125, High Street, Woolwich, London & Kent, England

Isaac Gabriel Head Married Male 39 1842 Tailor Poland (Russia)
Julia Gabriel Wife Married Female 24 1857 Wife -
Hilda Gabriel Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Woolwich, Kent, England
Morris Gabriel Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Woolwich, Kent, England
Gabriel Gabriel Son Single Male 1 1880 - Woolwich, Kent, England
Maud Gabriel Daughter Single Female 0 1881 - Woolwich, Kent, England
Lizzy Tylor Servant Single Female 18 1863 Domestic Servant Woolwich, Kent, England

MMN for children is Morris

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 20:31

I wonder if she was listed incorrectly? or was Sophia Julia ?

Marriages Jun 1871 (>99%)
Gabriel Isaac London C. 1c 197

MORRIS Sophia London C. 1c 197

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Nov 2017 20:32

For ref

Back
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Andrew Street, Lower, West Ham, London & Essex, England

Morris Fordonski Head - Male 32 1839 - Poland (Russia)
Dinah Fordonski Wife - Female 28 1843 - Middlesex, England
Samuel Fordonski Son - Male 2 1869 - Essex, England
Mark Fordonski Son - Male 0 1871 - Essex, England
Isaac Gabriel Lodger - Male 29 1842 - Poland (Russia)


Unmarried on above.

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 20:35

MORRIS, JULIA SOPHIA mmn NEALE Order
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 198

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 20:39

England, Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
First name(s) Julia Sophia
Last name Morris
Gender Female
Birth year 1841
Birth place -
Baptism year 1841
Baptism date 04 Jul 1841
Place -
County London
Country England
Father's first name(s) Matthew
Father's last name Morris
Mother's first name(s) Julia
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Nov 2017 20:40

Baptism of above if relevant

Print transcription
First name(s) Julia Sophia
Last name Morris
Gender Female
Birth year 1841
Birth place -
Baptism year 1841
Baptism date 04 Jul 1841
Place -
County London
Country England
Father's first name(s) Matthew
Father's last name Morris
Mother's first name(s) Julia
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain
Index (c) IRI. Used by permission of FamilySearch Intl

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Nov 2017 20:48

On the image of the 1881 census, Julia's age is clearly recorded as 24 years.

On the 1891 she is recorded as 35 years old.


Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 20:53

So she is and consistent on the later ones, drat lol

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 20:54

Hilda's birth

GABRIEL, HINDALA ELIZABETH MORRIS Order
GRO Reference: 1873 M Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1005

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 29 Nov 2017 20:55

Julia Gabriel
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Julia Gabriel
Age: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Issac Gabriel
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 08
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 565
Folio: 54
Page Number: 31
Household schedule number: 200
Household Members:
Name Age
Issac Gabriel 59
Julia Gabriel 44
Gabriel Gabriel 21
Maud Gabriel 20
Beatrice Gabriel 19
Alfred Gabriel 18



Julia Gabriel
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Julia Gabriel
Death Age: 61
Birth Date: abt 1855
Registration Date: Mar 1916
Registration district: Woolwich
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 1395



Julia Augusta Morris
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Julia Augusta Morris
Registration Year: 1857
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 305


EDIT:

The birth above is the wrong one -

Julia Augusta Morris
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Julia Augusta Morris
Registration Year: 1888
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 1103
Records on Page:
Name
Joseph Brand
Richard James P Conway
Edith Ann Horder
Julia Augusta Morris

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 21:03

Doesn't help but in case you haven't seen it.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=189005190093

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 21:13

On the probate record for Isaac 1905 it gives probate to Julia Morris spinster, which may suggest they did not marry?

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 29 Nov 2017 21:17

There certainly doesn't seem to be any record of a marriage.

1911 gives her a different YOB - more consistent with her death record:


Julia Gabriel
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Julia Gabriel
Age in 1911: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Woolwich
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 62 Hare Street, Woolwich
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: PRIVATE MEANS
Registration district: Woolwich
Registration District Number: 30
Sub-registration district: Woolwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Piece: 2876
Household Members:
Name Age
Julia Gabriel 57
Alfred Gabriel 27


So she's likely one of these:

Births Dec 1853 (>99%)
MORRIS Julia Marylebone 1a 345
MORRIS Julia E London 1c 4


Doesn't help with the marriage question, though.

Nyx

Nyx Report 29 Nov 2017 21:18

Julia Gabriel's probate is also listed 1916, probate to Alfred and Gabriel Gabriel Tailors.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 29 Nov 2017 22:29

Baptism of the Julia birth in Marylebone?


First name(s) Julia
Last name Morris
Gender Female
Birth year 1853
Birth place -
Baptism year 1853
Baptism date 13 Nov 1853
Place St Marylebone
County London
Country England
Father's first name(s) Walter
Father's last name Morris
Mother's first name(s) Julia
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain
Index (c) IRI. Used by permission of FamilySearch Intl

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 30 Nov 2017 07:26

http://www.cemeteryscribes.com/getperson.php?personID=I6548&tree=Cemeteries

(Isaac Gabriel on google search)

Chris :)

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4135607

(should be on below also)

UK, Naturalisation Certificates and Declarations, 1870-1916 (Ancestry)


(below was another, Newspaper article on his Death, after inquest, was knocked down by a cart)

Birth
GABRIEL, ELLIS BERG (MORRIS)
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1031

Death
GABRIEL, ELLIS BERG 3
GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 669


(some other articles Newspapers, Find My Past and below, subscription needed)

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/advanced

marjorie

marjorie Report 30 Nov 2017 10:11

Thanks to everyone for so kindly sending me this info. I had loosely connected Isaac with Sophia Morris as that was one of two marriages around the time I would expect Isaac to have been married. Is there any way I can find out about Isaac before he was Naturalised and before he left Poland.

I am so grateful for everyone giving up their time to help mec

Kind Regards Marjorie.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 30 Nov 2017 10:32

I don't see him in the UK before the 1871 census - unless when he became naturalised he changed his surname, perhaps from something harder to spell or pronounce, or more obviously foreign.


Some advice on research into Polish genealogy here:

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Poland_Beginning_Research

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 30 Nov 2017 11:50

(not seeing on below, might be just before 1871)

England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869 (Ancestry)

Chris :)

(in case 1871 Family related to him, but not a lot for Morris either!)

Birth
FORDONSKI, MARK ( JOEL)
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 37


Marriages Mar 1866 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Fordonski Morris London City 1c 186
JOEL Dinah London City 1c 186

(perhaps just another Tailor/Waterproofer known to him, or his family!)