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The 1875 birth posted by safc is this one:

DUFFY, MARGARET mms MONTGOMERY
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 101


I think this is the marriage of the parents:

Marriages Sep 1867 (>99%)
Duffey Robert Liverpool 8b 105
MONTGOMERY Margaret Liverpool 8b 105

and the family in 1881:

Margaret Duffy
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Margaret Duffy
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Robert Duffy
Mother: Margaret Duffy
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool
[Liverpool, Lancashire, England]
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 2 Court 2 House
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub registration district: Mount Pleasant
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors:
Piece: 3625
Folio: 5
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Duffy 36
Margaret Duffy 33
Elizabeth Duffy 12
Robert Duffy 11
Francis Duffy 10
Margaret Duffy 6
Eliza Duffy 4
Miriam Duffy 2

The 1911 above which shows Margaret with her father Patrick and her sister Jane now married to a James Scott is obviously the Margaret with mm name of Wade as this is Jane's birth reg:

DUFFY, JANE WADE Order
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 360

Margaret's baptism does show her with the correct middle name (all names latinised of course as this is a Catholic baptism) - "Margarita Helena Duffy - filia Patritii Duffy & Helenae (formerly Wade)".

Dea x

Shirley asked .............

She born 19th March 1875 apparently. From the 1939 census?, how accurate coukd that be

- - - - - -- -

It could well be far from accurate!!!!!!!

People have always lied about their age, or given wrong dates because they didn't know.

Example that I have posted several times on these Boards ..............

My grandfather lied about his age on his marriage certificate (so did his bride) .......... both added 1 or 2 years to their ages but still didn't make themselves 21 or over. She said she was 20, he said he was 19.

He lied to his family for all his life about his birthday ............. we HAD to go to see him on Christmas Day because that was his birthday. Nope ............. he was born on January 9 (as discovered after he died).

His date of birth on the 1939 Register is therefore 25 December 1884

Nope .............. it was January 9 1885 (birth certificate).

Only about 2 weeks ............... but it makes a difference when searching for someone with a common name!

In fact .......... his year of birth varies from 1884 to 1886 depending on what he said, and that is on official documents!


Never ever trust ages except on birth certificates, and even they might be slightly wrong!

Hi. Have I missed something. Not sure about this Patrick and Margaret?, my Margaret ellen Duffy was probably born to Thomas Duffy and Margaret. Born on 19th March 1875. I can't figure out the connection to Patrick. Please coukd someone explain as I think I am definately missing something?
:-)

On the 1881 census she is down as the granddaughter of Thomas and Margaret but think she is the daughter as she has Thomas down as her father on her marriage to Thomas Byrne in 1894 in Burnley.
Have I missed the Patrick connection somewhere?, :-)

The birth of Margaret with father Patrick was suggested because it was in Lancashire, on the 19th of a month in 1875, and her name would match your Margaret.

As already pointed out, her DOB as given in 1939 is not necessarily correct.

However, I agree with you that your Margaret is the daughter of Thomas.
Unfortunately we can't find her birth convincingly - nor her siblings' births - which is why any possibility is being investigated.

Even if (grasping at straws here) Thomas and Margaret weren't married and the births were registered under Margaret's surname, there still doesn't seem to be any one obvious name, as far as I can see.

Thanks for that. Thought I'd missed something. Got brain fog lately. Yes I think you are right not to trust date of birth. I did find a Margaret callaghan born in Bolton for 1875 so did think she could have been daughter of John and Emma. But think I have discounted that now. Unless Margaret daughter of another son but there doesnt seem to be one. Thanks for the info and help everyone. May have to resign to not discovering her birth cert ??????

One thing I did notice. Discrepancies in ages by as much as five years from 1881 census and 1891 census for Thomas and Margaret and their children. Did it say on the census where Bridget was born? Was it Liverpool?, :-)

Yes -
1871, 1881, 1891 all say Liverpool.


If it wasn't for that I might have considered this birth - but the names are all very common, so I'm not suggesting it's correct:

Bridget Duffy
in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name: Bridget Duffy
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 14 May 1865
Birth Place: Ratoath, Meath, Ireland
Father: Thomas Duffy
Mother: Margaret Kelly
FHL Film Number: 101106

Bridget's birth year only varies by 2 years in the censuses - 1865 or 1867.

EDIT:

No, this (below) may be wrong, as the son Martin was born 1889, whereas your Bridget was still at home with her parents in 1891.

Don't see Martin anywhere in 1891, though.

***

Bridget then seems to have married Andrew Rooney, though I don't see the marriage so far.


Bridget Rooney
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Bridget Rooney
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Andrew Rooney
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Albans
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors:
Piece: 3410
Folio: 111
Page Number: 9
Household schedule number: 64
Household Members:
Name Age
Andrew Rooney 44
Bridget Rooney 36
Martin J Rooney 11
Elizabeth Rooney 9
Andrew Rooney 6
Agnes Rooney 3
Catherine Rooney 1

MMS for all the children is Duffy.


Martinus Josephus Rooney
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1916
Name: Martinus Josephus Rooney
Age: 0
Birth Date: 13 Sep 1889
Baptism Date: 20 Sep 1889
Baptism Place: Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Androae Rooney
Mother: Brigidae Duffy

But this looks like Martin in 1891, so the above MAY be correct after allt.
There's no surname given for him, but also no ditto marks to indicate that he's a Finigan, and also no relationship is given.
He's been fostered out, or a "nurse child", I think.

There's no matching birth of a Martin Finigan or variation of spelling, that I can see.



Martin J
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Martin J
Gender: Male
Age: 1
Birth Year: 1890
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Residence Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Sub registration district: St Martin
ED, Institution or Vessel: 14
Neighbors:
Piece: 2900
Folio: 93
Household Members:
Name Age
Marten Finigan 44
Annie Finigan 29
James Finigan 5
William Finigan 4
Martin J 1
James Murphy 22
Elizabeth Murphy 20

?? But your Bridget's with her parents and unmarried in 1891 ??

Andrew Rooney
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Andrew Rooney
Registration Year: 1884
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 274
Records on Page:
Name
Thomas Burns
Bridget Duffy
Kate Mackin
Andrew Rooney

NO!!!

Sorry - ignore the above Rooney family. I've just been confusing myself.

Your Bridget was still at home with her parents in 1901 and 1911, and I see what you mean about the 5-year age discrepancy.

1901 says 1871, but then 1911 is back to 1864.

There's a Bridget Duffy born in Liverpool in 1868, with mms Duffy, who MIGHT be the daughter of the couple whose marriage I posted earlier - Thomas Duffy and Margaret Duffy.

But then there aren't Duffy/Duffy births for the other children.

And 1868 is later than the censuses in the main agree for your Bridget's birth.

And I think this may be the death of that child;

DUFFY, BRIDGET 0
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 104

Yes ArgyllGran - this family is taking us all over the place !!

I had explored that Bridget who ended up with a Rooney but it didn't fit !!

I am convinced that they used another name entirely and I am not even sure that the 1891 and 1881 we have are even of the same family??

I also decided that Thomas had been attached to 2 different 'Margaret's ?? - but I couldn't prove that either !!!!!!!!!!!! :-| :-| :-|

This 'looks like' the same family in 1861 so they were still calling themselves Duffy on there !!!!!!!!! :


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Lowergate, Clitheroe, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Duffy Head Married Male 28 1833 Labourer At Cotton Mill Ireland
Margaret Duffy Wife Married Female 26 1835 Drawer At Cotton Mill Ireland
John Duffy Son Unmarried Male 6 1855 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Duffy Daughter - Female 4 1857 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Can't find a matching mothers maiden name for the John and Mary Ann births (nothing new there then!).

This gives dates of birth for John and Bridget in 1939 - John is a widow and he is living with his sister Bridget who is still single:

Duffy Household (2 People) 48 Forfar Street , Burnley C.B., Lancashire, England
(brother + sister)
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Occupation
John Duffy 23 May 1855 General Labourer (Retired) - widow
Bridget Duffy 25 Dec 1864 Cotton Rover (Retired) - single

The dates of birth, again, do not help though in finding the registrations and matching mothers maiden names.............

I am sure that I am only one of several people working on this who are going round and round in circles and getting absolutely nowhere - It is most frustrating.

We just have to keep at it and hope that one of us strikes gold sooner or later and it all then fits into place.

Dea x

That John who's on the 1939 register:

Joannes Duffy
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1916
Name: Joannes Duffy
[John Duffy]
Age: 0
Birth Date: 23 May 1855
Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1855
Baptism Place: Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Maria Duffy [ image says Thomas, I think ]
Mother: Margarita Duffy

And Bridget ??


Brigitta Duffy
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1916
Name: Brigitta Duffy
[Bridget Duffy]
Age: 0
Birth Date: 25 Dec 1864
Baptism Date: 11 Jan 1865
Baptism Place: Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Duffy
Mother: Margarita Mcbrad


One of the godparents is Pat. McBrad.

Possibly not linked, but will post anyway, in case:

Margarita Duffy
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1916
Name: Margarita Duffy
Age: 0
Birth Date: 20 Jul 1869
Baptism Date: 25 Jul 1869
Baptism Place: Holy Cross, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Duffy
Mother: Margarita Duffy


Well, not unless they're mucking about with their surnames - which is perfectly possible. It would still match that marriage I posted erlier:


DUFFY, MARGARET mms DUFFY
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 95

John, born May 1855 ???


MCBRIDE, JOHN -
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 77

??? Mary Ann ??

DUFFY, MARY mms DUFFY
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 119