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Yes sorry about that I was reading the actual cert which Dea just put up and got a bit muddled. I went back and saw Malyon has posted it and was going to delete it but oh came out and you know what its like when the men arrive when you're doing something and I forgot.

I was just about to say that AG ;-)

If you want to see the actual cert it can be seen here:

https://archives.gnb.ca/Search/VISSE/141B7.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=2716f213-8300-470b-a494-d2ffb32d268d

Dea x

That's John junior's marriage to Mabel Lydia Murray, which Malyon posted on page 1, Mel.

Print
Daisy A Danson

New Brunswick, Canada, Marriages, 1789-1950



Name: Daisy A Danson
Gender: Female
Marriage Place: New Brunswick, Canada
Spouse: John C Firmin
Child: John Charles Firmin
Certificate Number: 18499

The 1923 death of John senior in Derby which I posted earlier was correct.

From that Rootschat thread:

" . . . . his death was reported by the Master of the Derby Union. Place of death Guardians Institution Derby. The Army received the notification of his death 15 November 1923."

Interesting thread about the family here:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744686.0

" An only son is stated to have been born 5 Feb 1915 at a private address in Upper Luton Road, Chatham, Kent but the birth was not registered. I cannot find Margaret [who in one letter in the military record signs her name Mabel, the other she signs as Margaret] after this letter of Oct 1915 from her address in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. This son, now dead, emigrated to Canada aged '15' in 1929 (having stated is birth date was 5 Feb 1914). He was not brought up by Margaret but in Devon by a Daisy Ann Potter Truman formerly Hadfield nee Danson from Folkstone, Kent who he claimed on his marriage in 1940 in New Brunswick to be his mother. "

>>>>>>>>>>> "Margaret [signs Mabel] told the army 'I never had him registered as I knew nothing about it but I am giving (sic) to understand that if I go to were (sic) he was born I could have him done but it would cost me five shillings and their (sic) would be my fare of course I can't meet the expenses at present but will in meanwhile try to get it by writing.' "

"John Charles Firmin the elder applying for a medal re WWI was at 6 Yard Place, Hood Street, Taunton as of 13 February 1922.
Amongst the same papers (on ancestry) noted he died of malaria and acute bronchitis 20 October 1923.
>>>>>>>>> If JCF Junior was with him in Taunton Devon, was he placed with a family as he was 7or 8 years old and his fathers health deteriorating."


"John Charles jnr was living with her [Daisy ] & husband Charles Truman in Exmouth when he emigrated in 1929 & he named her as his mother in 1940."

"Apparently John C jnr was 'put into a school' when young as Daisy could not cope with him - whether financially, practically or other reason we do not know. She had some somewhat shady ways of earning money which a young child were incompatible with"


And much more . . . .

So it looks as if we can stop looking for a birth record - there isn't one to find.

Maybe the above means that John junior was actually Margaret's son, not Daisy's?

Although, in spite of everything in that thread, as we've seen, John senior and Daisy were together in 1914 - so there was definitely something between them..

Looks like Daisy's first husband's death:

Albert Hadfield
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Albert Hadfield
Death Age: 46
Birth Date: abt 1881
Registration Date: Mar 1927
Registration district: Elham
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 1942

Daisy's son Albert William Hadfield married in Elham in 1935, and in 1939 he's in Sunbury-on-Thames with wife, two children, and probably a sister-in-law.

But goodness knows where he was between 1911 and 1935.
He could still have been with Daisy.

Truman on image, mistranscribed:


Daisy A P Terman
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Daisy A P Terman
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 5 Feb 1884
Residence Year: 1939
Residence Place: Exmouth, Devon, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 58
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: WFKI
Registration district: 270/1.
Inferred Spouse: Charles Terman
Household Members:
Name
Charles Terman [ Charlie on image ]
Daisy A P Terman

Copying Daisy's marriages again for ease of reference:


Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
DANSON Daisy Ann P Elham 2a 2373
HADFIELD Albert William Elham 2a 2373


Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
Hadfield Daisy A P Truman St.Thomas 5b 129
Truman Charles Hadfield St.Thomas 5b 129


And her death:

Daisy A P Truman
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Daisy A P Truman
Death Age: 81
Birth Date: abt 1883
Registration Date: Jun 1964
Registration district: Exeter
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 7a
Page: 386

...and where are Daisy's other children?

One of them as an 'added note' envelope on freebmd site.

The newspaper story does link the couple back to Kent.

I'm confused by all the surnames, but could see that FIRMAN and TRUMAN could look like each other in some written script.

I love that! "Respectably dressed married couple".

No mention of a child in that report, so presumably John Charles wasn't yet born, and the 1915 birth date is correct(ish).

As John senior and Margaret were acknowledging his existence in 1915, it doesn't look as if he'd been handed over to Barnardos or other institution, so I'd guess he remained with Daisy.

As Margaret is mentioned on John senior's army record, and had been asked about John junior, does that mean John had gone back to Margaret during 1915, I wonder?


But there's still no sign of John junior's birth, under any of the possible surnames, at least not with mms Danson.

Looks like John & Daisy were in Hampshire in 1914 'pretending' to be a 'respectable married couple' :

At the Police-court, on Tuesday. before Mr. E. J. Baker, a respectably dressed married couple, named John and Daisy Firman, pleaded guilty to begging at Petersfield on Monday.—P.C. Arnold gave evidence, and said prisoners obtained Is. from......
06 November 1914 - Hampshire Telegraph - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Full article can be seen here:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/88313024


Dea x

His death ?? Maybe this has something to do with John junior going to Canada in 1929 ?? Father dead, mother with new husband 1927.

John C Firmin
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: John C Firmin
Death Age: 54
Birth Date: abt 1869
Registration Date: Dec 1923
Registration district: Derby
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 615

EDIT:

Yes, this death is correct.
See my post on 1st Feb @ 10:45

The 1929 voyage record says his occupation in the UK was "Golf Links Assistant" .

Mother: Daisy A Truman, 20 New Street, Exmouth.
And there's a note - "Mother remarried".




John Firmin senior's 1915 army record, which gives John Charles's DOB as 15 Feb 1915, says the DOB was "Verified from declaration of wife".
What does that signify ?? Presumably she was just acknowledging that John Charles was her husband's son.


John senior, born Bethnal Green, had originally joined the army in October 1888, when his record says he was aged 20 years 5 months.
He'd been working as a painter for Mr Taylor in East Dereham for 5 years (or was an apprentice).
NOK: Father, John, East Dereham.
In 1896 he was transferred to the Army Reserve, and intended to return to East Dereham.
Rejoined the army in 1898, and served in South Africa 1899 - 1901.
Discharged 1/10/1901, when he received South African War Gratuities.

So he would be abroad with the army in 1901.
But where is he in 1911, when Margaret is with her parents ?

He joined the army again in 1915.
Where is he between 1902 and 1915 - apart from having a dalliance with Daisy.



With his parents in 1881, but presumably away with the army in 1891 and 1901:

John Firman
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Firman
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: John Firman
Mother: Mary Firman
Gender: Male
Where born: London B Green, London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address: London Road
Registration district: Mitford
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 1979
Folio: 77
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
John Firman 39
Mary Firman 44
John Firman 13
Benjamine Firman 12
Agnes Firman 9
William Firman 6:


??

John Charles Firman
in the Norfolk, England, Register of Electors, 1832-1915
Name: John Charles Firman
Event Year: 1905
Event Place: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
Division: Mid division
Film Number: 001597020

John Firman Snr's army records show year of birth for John Jnr. as 1915 !! ??
John Snr. was married to Margaret:

Marriages Dec 1902 (>99%)
Brunton Margaret Mitford 4b 706 Scan available - click to view
Firman John Mitford 4b 706 Scan available - click to view


This is Margaret + family on 1911:

Record Transcription:
1911 Census For England & Wales
1 Adcock Square, East Dereham, Norfolk, England

Margaret Firmin's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Edward Brunton Head Married Male 57 1854 Labourer Dereham Nfk
Margaret Brunton Wife Married Female 49 1862 - Dereham Nfk
Eliza Brunton Daughter Single Female 29 1882 Home Dereham Nfk
Margaret Firmin Daughter Married Female 27 1884 At Home Dereham Nfk
Edward Brunton Grandson - Male 14 1897 School Toftwood Nfk
Florence Brunton Granddaughter - Female 12 1899 School Toftwood Nfk
Margaret Brunton Granddaughter - Female 10 1901 School Toftwood Nfk
William Firmin Stepson (I think it says 'Grandson' ) - Male 3 1908 - Dereham Nfk
Margaret Firmin's Census Details
Details taken from the original census record.


Dea x

On that 1938 border crossing he says that he arrived in Canada 8/10/28 aboard the Duchess of York.

Was he a home child?

Item: John Charles FIRMIN (123349)
Given Name(s):
John Charles
Surname:
FIRMIN
Gender:
M
Age:
16
Year of Arrival:
1929
Ship:
DUCHESS OF YORK
Date of Departure:
1929-08-01
Port of Departure:
Liverpool
Date of Arrival:
1929-08-08
Port of Arrival:
Quebec
Party:
England
Destination:
Montreal, Quebec
Children travelling together:
Q29FQ
Comments:
45 lads to the British Immigration and Colonization Association Hostel in Montreal.
Type of Records:
Passenger Lists
Page Number:
56
Volume Number:
18
Microfilm Reel Number:
T-14757
Reference:
RG 76 C1a
Source:
Library and Archives Canada
Database Item Number:
123349

John Charles Firmin
United States Border Crossings from Canada to United States, 1895-1956

Name: John Charles Firmin
Arrival Date: 22 Feb 1938
Arrival Port: Buffalo, New York,
Age: 23
Birth Year (Estimated): 1915
Birthplace: , Chatham Kent
Birth Country: England
Gender: Male
Race: English
Photograph Included: N

John Charles Firmin
New York, Northern Arrival Manifests, 1902-1956

Name: John Charles Firmin
Event Type: Immigration
Event Date: 1938
Event Place: New York, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 23
Birth Year (Estimated): 1915
Birthplace: Chatham Kent England
Ship Name: Dutchess Of York

John Charles Firmin
New Brunswick Provincial Marriages 1789-1950

Name: John Charles Firmin
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 11 May 1940
Event Place: , Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Gender: Male
Age: 26
Birth Year (Estimated): 1914
Father's Name: John C Firmin
Mother's Name: Daisy A Danson
Spouse's Name: Mabel Lydia Murray
Spouse's Gender: Female
Spouse's Age: 31
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1909
Spouse's Father's Name: Walter Murray
Spouse's Mother's Name: Laura Newman
Certificate Number: 18499