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Thank you for all your help.
It’s interesting to see Walter was still with the family aged 16 years and as a postman as later he became a piano tuner the story my father was told was that he was paid to leave the family and he never had contact with them again he was around 17 years old when this happened. My Granfather never said why, seems he weaved a tangled web! I did find him going out to New York when he was 22 and returning soon after and then in Bristol.

Joy - all sorts of lies were told then as now. Just because she said she was married in 1911 - how would anyone at the Workhouse/workhouse hospital know that? Or if she did say she was married but abandoned for example, how could they trace the husband?

Likewise, if Reginald was hers (and after all he was given her maiden name when his birth was registered) but she had left him - for whatever reason - why did she need to admit that on the census form - who would know? She was a respectable school teacher.

It has always been my understanding that the census was asking "How many children born to the present marriage - if no children born write none." It then subdivides and asks Total children born alive, Children still living, children who have died.

Her Mother incorrectly completed this section as she was a widow and the answers have been crossed through (as has Winifred's 13 years as it happens - maybe a mistake too)

Maybe if the marriage was in trouble she didn't tell her family, had the child in London and returned home.

If Ida had always been around Reginald perhaps never knew the difference and all looked right on the census form.

Walter 1881/1891 - address as per 1911 census for where born.

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
42, Aldenham Street, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Appleby Head Married Male 49 1832 Furrier St Andrew's, Middlesex, England
Ann Appleby Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Westminster, Middlesex, England
Louise A Appleby Daughter Single Female 20 1861 Teacher (School) Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Henry Appleby Son Single Male 17 1864 Fur Nailer Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Ada E Appleby Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Christmas Card Mounter Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Zean G Appleby Son Single Male 11 1870 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Arthur E Appleby Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Walter C Appleby Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
George Burridge Boarder - Male 72 1809 Architect St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Jemima P Taylder Lodger Single Female 68 1813 Needlewoman Penryn, Cornwall, England

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1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Aldenham Street, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Appleby Head Married Male 59 1832 Furrier London, Middlesex, England
Ann Appleby Wife Married Female 60 1831 - London, Middlesex, England
Henry Appleby Son Single Male 27 1864 Furrier London, Middlesex, England
Ada Appleby Daughter Single Female 24 1867 Postman Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Arthur Appleby Son - Male 18 1873 Oil Shopman London, Middlesex, England
Walter Appleby Son - Male 16 1875 Postman London, Middlesex, England
George Burridge Boarder Single Male 82 1809 Artist London, Middlesex, England

And if Ida and Walter weren’t married even though they lied putting Idas name down would of made him illegitimate which also wasn’t acceptable.
In the 1911 census it says she was married so she must of declared herself a widow once she entered the workhouse..
Can any see a census of when Walter was still living with his siblings ?

Couples separated all the time back then, at least as often as now.

It is quite common to find that one or both will then describe themselves as either single or widowed in the future ......... it was much more respectable than saying "separated", and divorce was usually beyond the reach of all but the very rich.

An older woman might find that she felt more comfortable saying "widow" than "single", especially if the spouse was not living in the same town.

Therefore not surprising to see that Winifred called herself "widow", and she was telling the truth about children as the question on the 1911 was whether the WOMAN had had any children, not children of the marriage!

Following on from that ............... Walter and Ida were also telling the truth in saying that Reginald was Ida's son!

Walter is named as his father on both.
Seems a lot of lies were told.
I know Winfred had curvature of the spine.
And as you’ve found the census saying no child born maybe she was unaware they or Walter had lied on the birth certificate but she had already lied saying Walter was dead.
Two options really but I will never know for sure

Name: Reginald C Appleby
Registration Date: Apr-May-Jun 1929
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: Middlesex
Spouse: Olive M Hayes
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 1375

Does he give Walter as his father on the cert

Wonder whether they lied on the birth certificate and gave Winifred as the mum as they werent married

Was a father named

As Ida was in st Pancras I would say she was the mum and they lied with the name to cover up

They were living as husband and wife in the London area in 1911

Think there was some porkies being told to cover up that they weren't married

Cant think they had Reginald with them in 1911 if he wasn't their son

Also Winifred on the 1911 census says married 13 years no children born

Walter and Winifred together on 1901 census in Bristol
Ida with parents in St Pancras

Winifred gives birth to Reginald in 1905 in London - did Walter and Winifred go to London together for whatever reason?

Winifred back with parents in 1911 in Bristol. Mother's didn't have many rights as far as children were concerned.

Walter with Ida and Reginald in 1911. For respectability, saying they had been married for 7 years would cover having 5 year old Reginald with them.

Think you'll never know the answer for sure.

Name PERCY CAPPS
Date of Birth 1875
Group Registration ID 9476691
SR District/Reg Area Mullingar
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R

Image - Date and place of birth definitely says 1874 - looks like a late registration as date of reg. is March 30th 1875

30.9.1874 @ Military Barracks, Mullingar
Percy George Mark Capps
s/o Thomas Harland Capps and Elizabeth Capps formerly Newick
Father - Colour Sergeant 109th Regt.

--------------------

Trying to work this out, so they lied about being married when Reginald was 5 as I have their marriage certificate. They got married in September 1920 and were living at 130 Great fitchfield street Marylebone.
The birth certificate I have for Reginald says he was born 1906 and the mother was Winifred Wrilde address 23 Clarence street.
So that fact it says child would mean Ida ( Elizabeth ) Capps was not the mother? In fact it was Winifred?

It looks like Winifred was also listed as being with her parents in 1901


Name:Gertrude A Wride

Age:20

Estimated birth year:abt 1881

Relation to Head:Daughter

Gender:Female

Father:Lewis C Wride

Mother:Lydia Wride

Birth Place:Bristol

Civil Parish:Bristol

Ecclesiastical parish:Easton All Hallows

County/Island:Gloucestershire

Registration district:Bristol

Sub-registration district:St George

ED, institution, or vessel:04

Piece:2388
Folio:71

Page Number:31
Household schedule number:182

Lewis C Wride 47 Commission agent
Lydia Wride 47
Louise V Wride 25 School teacher
Gertrude A Wride 20 ? Assistant

British Army, Worldwide Index 1871

First name(s) Thos H
Last name Capps
Service number 1490
Rank Private
Unit or Regiment 1st Bn 12th (East Suffolk) Regiment of Foot
HQ location Preston
Notes
Attached from 109th Regt <<<<<<<<
Year 1871
Country Great Britain
National Archives reference WO 12/2999
Period 01/04/1871-30/06/1871

Possibly attached for pay purposes etc as previous record posted says he didn't leave India until 20th April

British Army, Worldwide Index 1871

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Capps
Service number 1490
Rank Private
Unit or Regiment 109th Regiment of Foot (Bombay Infantry)
HQ location Roorkee ,India
Notes
Embarked for England on 20 April 1871
Year 1871
Country Great Britain
National Archives reference WO 12/10047
Period 01/04/1871-30/06/1871
Record set British Army, Worldwide Index 1871
Category

British Army Service Records

First name(s) Thomas Harland
Last name Capps
Birth year 1849
Birth parish St Martins in the Fields
Birth town London
Birth county Middlesex
Birth country England
Service number 1490
Rank SERGEANT
Regiment 109th Reg Of Foot
Year 1867
Attestation date 29 Oct 1867 (at Chatham)
Attestation age years 18
Attestation age months 3
Discharge corps 109th Reg Of Foot
Discharge service number 1490
Document type Discharge
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 1909
Box record number 54
Record set British Army Service Records

discharged 20 Feb 1881 - prevented by disability from re-engaging - seems he sustained an Inguinal hernia whilst in India in 1870 through him falling into a water course when on duty during a Brigade parade

Was once each in Regimental defaulters book and once tried by courts Martial

Made it back to Sergeant having been reduced from Colour Sergeant to Private in 1875 for "Disgraceful conduct"

Served in India for over 3 years

At Mullingar ((County Westmeath) 1874
?Kilkenny (Co. Kilkenny) 1875
aldershot 1876
Portsmouth 1877
Aldershot 1879

Intended place of residence on discharge - 58 Great College Street, Kentish Town, London

Greyghost, I think the original for the relationship for Reginald on that 1911 census said "child" and was changed to "son".

Still as Elizabeth in 1901

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
8, Arlington Road, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Caps Head Married Male 52 1849 Commercial Clerk London, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Caps Wife Married Female 50 1851 - London, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Caps Daughter Single Female 22 1879 Dressmaker Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Alice Caps Daughter Single Female 19 1882 Upholstress London, Middlesex, England
Henry Caps Son Single Male 15 1886 Grocer's Assistant London, Middlesex, England

Ida already in London by 1881

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Princes Mews, St Margaret and St John the Evangelist Westminster, St George Hanover Square, London & Middlesex, England


First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas H Capps Head Married Male 31 1850 Clerk & Pensioner St Martin in the Fields, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Capps Wife Married Female 33 1848 - Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Percy Capps Son Single Male 6 1875 - Ireland
Albert Capps Son Single Male 4 1877 - Ireland
Ida Capps Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Ada Capps Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - St Pancras, Middlesex, England
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
and as Elizabeth in 1891

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Seaton Street, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Capps Head Married Male 41 1850 Clerk -
Elizabeth Capps Wife Married Female 39 1852 - -
Albert Capps Son Single Male 15 1876 - St Martin
Elizabeth Capps Daughter - Female 11 1880 - -
Harry Capps Son - Male 5 1886 - -

Quite interesting that 1911 census - here it is from FMP

Reginald's relationship to Walter is overwritten as son - but can't make out what the original said.

Someone has been very precise writing in the places of birth - see below

1911 Census For England & Wales
31 Marylebone Lane W, St Marylebone, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Walter Charles Appleby Head Married Male 37 1874 Pianoforte Tuner London Eng
Ida Elizabeth Appleby Wife Married Female 33 1878 Ladies Tailor Portsmouth Eng
Reginald Charles Appleby Son Single Male 5 1906 - London Eng Wt Appleby 42 Aldenham St Oakley Sq London Ida Appleby Port


?(Wt) Appleby written above London, England on Reginald'splace of birth Line
then below that -
42 Aldenham St Oakley Sq London
Ida Appleby Portsmouth Barracks

But what about this 1911 census? It says they've been married 7 years.


Walter Charles Appleby
in the 1911 England Census
Name:
Walter Charles Appleby
Age in 1911:
37
Estimated birth year:
abt 1874
Relation to Head:
Head
Gender:
Male
Birth Place:
London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish:
St Marylebone
County/Island:
London
Country:
England
Street address:
31 Marylebone Lane W
Marital status:
Married
Occupation:
PIANO FORTE TUNER

Household Members:

Walter Charles Appleby 37
Ida Elizabeth Appleby 33
Reginald Charles Appleby 5