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Alfred Robert Shaw 1883

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Jane

Jane Report 4 Jul 2019 12:41

Hi
I am hoping that somebody out there knows something about this story and that you can help me please.

My husband's Grandfather Alfred Robert Shaw was born on August 6, 1883, in Kingsthorpe, Northamptonshire, England. His father was John Shaw he was 24 his mother was Amy Croft she was 20.

Alfred married Evelyn Blanch Swayne and together they had four daughters . Alfred at the time was a parish curate. He had an affair and left his wife in 1920 while she was pregnant with their 5th child. He went away with this lady Gertrude Francis Knubley. Evelyn returned to her old home in Porton Wiltshire where she gave birth to their 5th child, Alfred's son.

Alfred then changed his name (not legally) to Frederick West and Gertrude changed her name to Kathleen West presumably so they couldn't be found, I don't think that they ever married as Alfred never divorced Evelyn.

Alfred and Kathleen then went to London where Alfred became a Postman and he and Kathleen lived at 169A Broadway in Cricklewood.

There was talk of them both emigrating, I don't know what happened but Kathleen(Gertrude) died and was buried at see in 1936.

Frederick(Alfred) and Kathleen(Gertrude) had one son together Peter who was born on June 8th 1926 but was sadly killed in Belgium on May 6th 1945 in WW2. On Peter's birth certificate his mother is Kathleen West formally Heaps, Heaps was Kathleen's mother's maiden name.

Alfred died we think between 1936-1938. As his mother died in 1938 and she was informed of Alfred's death.

If anyone knows anything about these two people, or if you know where and When Alfred died and was buried I would love to here from you. This is the last piece of the jigsaw that I am missing, also my husband would love to know where his Grandfather is buried.

Marked As Answer Marked as Answered

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Jul 2019 12:56

Unfortunately, there are lots of Frederick Wests all over the place.

I don't see Kathleen/Gertrude's death record - do you have the death cert?

(Thanks for making your post easier to read!)

Rambling

Rambling Report 4 Jul 2019 13:08

Just for ref date of birth for Gertude

Births Jun 1896 (>99%)
Knubley Gertrude Frances W. Derby 8b 584

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Jul 2019 13:15

I can't see 169 Cricklewood Broadway in 1939.
Plenty of other addresses in the street, but not 169.

greyghost

greyghost Report 4 Jul 2019 13:23

Is this Gertrude/Kathleen's death? If so you should be able to obtain a copy of the death cert.

The Samaria appears to possibly be a ship of the Cunard line - in her second 'life' she sailed from 1922 -1956 and was a troop ship 1940-48


GRO Marine Death Indices (1903 To 1965)

Source Gro Marine Death Indices (1903 To 1965)
Archive reference DMR3
War -
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
First name(s) Gertrude F
Sex Female
Last name West
Death year 1936-37
Birth year 1901
Type Consular/Overseas
Place Samaria
Page 19
Age 35
Birth date ? ? 1901
Registration year -
Branch of service -
Decoration -
Records year range 1936-1937
Line number 45
Archive
General Register Office
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

--------------------
Deaths At Sea 1891 – 1972

First name(s) Gertrude F
Last name West
Birth year -
Death year 1936
Death date Feb 1936
Place Samaria
Country Great Britain
Reported date 1936
Type At Sea
Vessel name Samaria
Departure port -
War -
Source Deaths At Sea 1891 – 1972
Archive reference BT 334
Box 0095
Archive
The National Archives

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Jul 2019 13:25

For the sake of some timescale, for helpers' ref - the youngest Shaw/Swayne child was born in 1921.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Jul 2019 13:40

The "Samaria" left Liverpool on 1 Feb 1936,and again on 29 Feb 1936, heading for Boston & NY.

No sign of any Gertrude West on either passenger list.

She must have been on the return journey between those two trips - but I can't see any record of the voyage on Ancestry, or anywhere else.

cane

cane Report 4 Jul 2019 17:16

Ile bet this is in the local newspaper of the time...Worth looking into ...Lots going on there

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Jul 2019 19:11


I don't see the birth of a Peter with mms Knubley.
Is his birth one of the ones with mms West?

His death on CWGC site, for helpers' ref:

Private WEST, PETER
Service Number 14838931
Died 06/05/1945
Aged 18
7th Bn.
Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry

Nephew of Will and Ann Knubley, of Liverpool


Peter isn't living with Will and Ann in 1939. There's a closed record with them, but there's enough of the name showing to let us see that that's their own child Kenneth.

William Knubley
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: William Knubley
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 5 Apr 1911
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 41
Residence Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Hemp Dresser Rope Works Heavy Worker
Schedule Number: 93
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: NHOD
Registration district: 453-5
Inferred Spouse: Ann Knubley
Household Members:
Name
William Knubley
Ann Knubley


This is the only Peter West in 1926 with mms West:

Births Jun 1926 (>99%)
West Peter B G West Hailsham 2b 136

??

PETER Bernard Everast
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: PETER Bernard Everast
[PETER Bernard Garrett]
[PETER Bernard West]
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 3 May 1926
Residence Year: 1939
Residence Place: Chailey, Sussex, England
Occupation: At School
Schedule Number: 65
Sub Schedule Number: 3
Enumeration District: EKGU
Household Members:
Name
PETER Bernard Everast



This is the only other one - but in 1927:

Births Jun 1927 (>99%)
West Peter West Hackney 1b 496


Frederick and Kathleen were in Cricklewood at least until 1933, per ER.

Rambling

Rambling Report 4 Jul 2019 19:39

From newspapers

"ON ACTIVE SERVICE
PETER, dearly-loved nephew of Mr. and Mrs. W. W. Knubley. Sanderstead. Surrey. (He died that we might live.) WEST —May. 1945. died of wounds Western Europe, in his 19th year, PETER, darling nephew of Ann Knubley. 9 Castleview Road. West Derby. (His duty nobly done)
23 May 1945 - Liverpool Echo - Liverpool, Lancashire, England"

Rambling

Rambling Report 4 Jul 2019 19:45

William Walter , uncle to Peter,

1939135 Norfolk Avenue, Coulsdon and Purley U.D., Surrey, England


William W K?Ubley 1903 02 Dec 1903 Male Jam Factory Manager Married 71 1
Eileen J K?Ubley 1900 18 Mar 1900 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 71 2

malyon

malyon Report 4 Jul 2019 21:53

Gertrude West
Massachusetts, Boston Crew Lists, 1917-1943

Name:
Gertrude West
Event Type:
Immigration
Event Date:
1935
Event Place:
Boston, Suffolk, Massachusetts, United States
Event Place:
Boston, Massachusetts
Gender:
Female
Age:
34
Birth Year (Estimated):
1901
Birth Country:
British
Ship Name:
Samaria

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Jul 2019 22:08

Well found, Malyon.

But I don't think that's Kathleen West, formerly Gertrude Knubley.

That woman was a bath attendant (crew member).
Length of service at sea: 3 months.

Gertrude West
in the Massachusetts, Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1963
Name: Gertrude West
Gender: Female
Nationality: British
Departure Place: Liverpool, England
Arrival Date: 23 Dec 1935
Arrival Place: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
Ship: Samaria




Gertrude West
in the Massachusetts, Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1963
Name: Gertrude West
Gender: Female
Arrival Date: 10 Feb 1936
Arrival Place: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
Ship: Samaria

*********
Diseases:
Gertrude West, 34, ship's crew. Appendicitis. Inflammation of liver. Jaundice. Exhaustion. Died.


ADDED:
and from another record, death date 8/2/36.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Jul 2019 12:21

Jane has marked this thread answered, by mistake;
Two PMs received:

Thanks for getting back to me, yes I do have all the details for Kathleen's death.
Many thanks
Jane



Thanks for the info, but I have been and looked at 169a Broadway, well at least the doorway, so I know its there, its on a corner above a bank.
Thanks again any info is gratefully received.
Jane



Jane - yes, I'm not doubting that the address exists. It's just that I couldn't find it listed on the 1939 Register, which I was searching to see if Alfred/Frederick was still there then.

Rambling

Rambling Report 6 Jul 2019 12:49

Pms to me also,

Jane has also said there appears to be a problem with her being able to post as the "report" seems to be being applied, not sure if that's a glitch as some of my posts were reported and then reinstated the other day.

Have suggested Jane try posting again and hope the glitch solves itself.

Jane

Jane Report 8 Jul 2019 12:19

I marked this thread answered, by mistake;

But please continue to send me any information re the above story on Alfred Robert Shaw ( Frederick West)


Jane

Jane

Jane Report 8 Jul 2019 12:38

Rambler:

"Just for ref date of birth for Gertude

Births Jun 1896 (>99%)
Knubley Gertrude Frances W. Derby 8b 584"

Thanks for your reply, Rambler.

Rambling

Rambling Report 8 Jul 2019 14:18

Jane does the exact date of birth from her birth cert' match with the death cert for Gertrude/Kathleen? I think we need to be able to eliminate or confirm that the death at sea is actually the right one?

safc

safc Report 8 Jul 2019 14:28

Record Transcription:
England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975

First name(s) Gertrude Frances
Last name Knubley
Gender Female
Birth year 1896
Birth place Saint Catherine, Edge Hill, Lancashire, England
Baptism year 1896
Baptism date 24 May 1896
Residence Edge-Hill, Lancashire, England
Place Edge Hill
County Lancashire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Samuel
Father's last name Knubley
Mother's first name(s) Sarah Alice
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain