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But wouldn’t any of the births still be registered as cramp ?

None show which means they weren’t registered with that name

A massive thank you to everyone for kindly looking up these records for me. From your research I discovered that Maud Cramp in the 1891 census was staying with her Aunt Sabina Tanner, her maiden name was Trott. Mary Trott was the mother of Emma Cramp nee Single who was married to William Cramp and who died in 1891.

I had wondered if Arthur was actually Emma's son but William Cramp not the father hence all the muddling of the dates.

I am very grateful to you all. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Hmmm - the other Mildred's army record mentions Cardiff - though I can't see the National Archives image clearly enough to know in what context.

Not that it helps with her birth, though.

Arthur a Widower,1933 Marriage, is below his first?...

Chris :)

Marriages Mar 1925 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Cramp Arthur Woodham Cardiff 11a 408
Woodham Gertrude Cramp Cardiff 11a 408


Deaths Dec 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Cramp Gertrude 26 Cardiff 11a 511


(also below!)

Marriages Mar 1928 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CRAMP Northcote W Woodham Cardiff 11a 387
Woodham Mildred M Cramp Cardiff 11a 387

Seems strange, lol...

(I know School Admission Records can be a bit 'out' with Birth dates, but that also states 7/5/90 for Arthur)

Chris :)

Edits (other Birth dates given for School Adms. Cramp, Honiton)...

Frank P, 9/5/95

Milly, 7/5/93 another states 7/1/93

Northcote, 4/5/93 another as Northcott, 4/5/93

(above have all been previously 'viewed, before as well, that seems strange also, unless 'Search All Member Trees' has any connections relating, googling usually brings up past queries)


Found Baptism (FMP) for Frank Percival 1914, Glamorgan, Birth date as 9/5/1895.

So - trying to sort out dates -

Arthur born 7th May 1889-91. 1901 says 1891; 1911 says 1891; 1939 says 1890.

Northcote born May 1893. That's fact per birth record. Also per Mildred's army record, although 1901 and 1939 both say 1894.


Mildred born May 1894 , per army record and 1939. But 1901 says 1893.

Emma died Feb 1891.

Julia Sabina/Sabrina was already with William in April 1891, as housekeeper/future wife.

No sign of Arthur in 1891, and in 1901 Mildred and Arthur are described as niece and nephew of William.
No sign of births of either of them as Cramp.

They do seem to have been born under some other surname, and then perhaps adopted by William.
Still seems strange to me that they both have birth date of 7th May - almost as if it was a deliberate choice if real date was unknown, perhaps.

Foundlings or similar ?? No actual relation ??

The terms "Niece" and "Nephew" could be used quite vaguely to include or gloss over many relationships

As the YOB's are all so variable, maybe Arthur wasn't born until 1891, after the census?

Some newspaper items...

Chris :)

06 February 1891 - Western Gazette - Yeovil, Somerset, England

Deaths
Cramp.—Feb. 3, at West End, Honiton, Emma, wife of Mr William Cramp, and second daughter ot Mr. Northcote Single, of Chard, aged 31.


12 May 1893 - Western Gazette - Yeovil, Somerset, England

Birth
Cramp.—May 4, at West-end, Honiton, the wife Mr. Wm. G. Cramp, of a son.


Somerset Baptism Index (Find My Past)

First name(s) Maud Alice
Last name Cramp
Baptism year 1888
Baptism date 06 Jul 1888
Residence Ilminster
Denomination Anglican
Place Ilminster
Somerset Baptism Index
County Somerset
Country England
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Cramp
Mother's first name(s) Emma
Father's occupation Tailor
Event type Baptisms
Archive Somerset Archives
Document type Parish records
Page 43
Archive reference D/P/ILM 2/1/17
Year range 1883-1901
Record set Somerset Baptism Index


19 March 1902 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England

Deaths
TANNER - March 15. at 6. Clarence Place. Cotham. Sabina. beloved wife of John Tanner, aged 64. Deeply mourned by her sorrowing friends. No flowers.


Edits (can see a Burial, Honiton, for Emma Cramp, 1891, 5th February, notes this has also been previously viewed!)

This is William's first marriage which was to Julia Sabina's sister Emma:


Marriages Dec 1886 (>99%)
Single Emma Chard 5c 738*

Marriages Dec 1886 (>99%)
CRAMP William Chard 5c 733* Scan available - click to view ************* - wrong number transcribed !!!



1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
(New Inn), Chard Municipal Borough, Chard, Somerset, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Northcott Single Head Married Male 51 1830 Licensed Victualler Chard, Somerset, England
Mary Single Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Chard, Somerset, England
John Single Son Single Male 13 1868 - Chard, Somerset, England
Julia Single Daughter Single Female 16 1865 Barmaid Chard, Somerset, England *
Emma Single Daughter Single Female 23 1858 Barmaid Chard, Somerset, England *
Luisa Single Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Chard, Somerset, England
Ada Single Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Chard, Somerset, England


So Alice Maud (Maud Alice) was 'their' child !

This must be Emma's death:
Deaths Mar 1891 (>99%)
Cramp Emma 31 Honiton 5b 17

Dea x

This is the brother

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
CRAMP, NORTHCOTE WILLIS SINGLE
GRO Reference: 1893 J Quarter in HONITON Volume 05B Page 23

1 Record(s) Found

I must have added on Cramp family previously also, I have 'ticks' on School Admissions, Northcote for one, and his Army Service Record...

Chris :)

National School Admission Registers & Log-Books 1870-1914 (Find My Past)

First name(s) Arthur
Last name Cramp
Birth year 1890
Birth date 07 May 1890
Event year 1896
School name Honiton County Primary School
Town Honiton
County Devon
Parent name(s) Willm.
Book type Admissions
Archive reference 4072C/EFA1
Archive Devon Heritage Services, Exeter
(Admission Date, 13/4/96. Address, West End. Left, 30/11/96, Reason, Boys School)


1933 Marriage on FMP for Arthur Cramp, Father, George William, occ. Tailor, a witness Northcote Willis Cramp. (Arthur, widower, 43, occ. Butcher, 7, Barry Road, Cadoxton)

Who was his father on his marriage?

Marriages Dec 1933
Bishop Grace H Cramp Cardiff 11a 687
Cramp Arthur Bishop Cardiff 11a 687

Rose

A birth in May 1891 wont show on 1891 census which was taken on 6th April.

Not that it's relevant, probably, but also can't find a birth record for Alfred John Tanner, (1880 Bristol), the son in the Tanner family where Alice Maud is a visitor in 1891.

Alfred John Tanner
in the Bristol, England, Select Church of England Parish Registers, 1720-1933
Name: Alfred John Tanner
Baptism Date: 29 Feb 1880
Baptism Place: Kingsdown, St Matthew, Gloucestershire, England
Father: John Tanner
Mother: Sabina Tanner




Alfred J Tanner
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Alfred J Tanner
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 15 Jan 1880
Residence Year: 1939
Residence Place: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Occupation: Senior Wholesale Provisions Buyer Manager
Schedule Number: 325
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: OARX
Registration district: 319/6
Inferred Spouse: Eleanor M Tanner
Household Members:
Name
Alfred J Tanner
Eleanor M Tanner
Kathleen I Milne

there are no births in nottinghamshire for maud and arthur cramp

Just hunting around
Is this your William 1881 - b Foleshill as per 1891 and a Tailor.
Marriage record to Sabina shows him as William George

Already a widower??

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Wellesbourne Road, Barford, Warwick, Warwickshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Harriet Hewitt Head Widow Female 48 1833 Tailoress Warwickshire, England
Caroline D Hewitt Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Barford, Warwickshire, England
Hubert John Hewitt Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Barford, Warwickshire, England
Henry Hewitt Brother In Law Single Male 40 1841 Carpenter Barford, Warwickshire, England
William G Cramp Boarder Widower Male 28 1853 Tailor Foleshill, Warwickshire, England
William Lee Apprentice Single Male 18 1863 Tailor (Apprentice) Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire, England

Deaths Mar 1953 (>99%)
CRAMP Julia S 87 E.Glamorgan 8b 394

Yes - a strange co-incidence indeed :-S

This is her in 1939 - she married in 1920:

Mildred Carter's life in 1939
51 St George's Road, Enfield U.D., Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Neville S Carter 05 Feb 1892 Male Ledger Keeper Hosiery Warehouse Married 99 1
Mildred Carter 07 May 1894 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 99 2
Neville F Carter 15 Sep 1921 Male Chartered Accountant Arti? Clerk Single 99 3
The record for this person is officially closed. Can I get around this?

Dea x

Interesting coincidence (?) that Arthur's birth is given as 7th May, and so is Mildred's in 1894;


Mildred Cramp
in the Web: UK, Women's Army Auxiliary Corps Index, 1917-1920
Name: Mildred Cramp
Birth Date: 7 May 1894
Birth Place: Honiton

Just wondering why I have viewed all these census's before - have you had another thread on these people?

Dea x

Just repeating that 1901 census posted earlier so I can comment at the same time -

Northcote and Frank Cramp's birth reg's can be found in Honiton RD as per place of birth. MMN Single. So were the other 2 born Nottm. or not !

The other 3 children are clearly shown on the original to be born Nottingham yet in 1891 Maud / Alice is shown as born Ilminster which would fit the Birth Reg, in Chard RD. Her mmn shown as Single.

Arthur and Mildred described as Nephew / niece 1901 and birth reg's not found.
IF surname Cramp then children of William's brother or unmarried sister??

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Mill Street, Honiton, Devon, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Cramp Head Married Male 45 1856 Tailor's Cutter - Coventry, Warwickshire
Subina Cramp Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Chard, Somerset, England
Maud Cramp Daughter Single Female 13 1888 - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Arthur Cramp Nephew - Male 10 1891 - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Mildred Cramp Niece - Female 8 1893 - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Northcote Cramp Son - Male 7 1894 - Honiton, Devon, England
Frank Cramp Son - Male 5 1896 - Honiton, Devon, England