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Gibbs or Smith or what?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Kuros

Kuros Report 13 Mar 2021 18:36

Thanks, Maddie. That's another one to look at. I can't believe how much information has come out of this!

Annie

Maddie

Maddie Report 13 Mar 2021 15:49

Job
Last name Smith
Birth quarter 2
Birth year 1884
Mother's maiden name Laverage
District Tenbury
County Worcestershire
Country England
Volume 6C
Page 285

Name: Job Smith
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 24 Apr 1888
Residence Year: 1939
Address: Garford, Yarkhill
Residence Place: Ledbury, Herefordshire, England
Occupation: Clothes Peg Maker
Line Number: 9
Schedule Number: 1
Sub Schedule Number: 9
Enumeration District: OGJE
Borough: Ledbury
Registration district: 335-1 Special 6
Inferred Spouse:
Comfort Smith
Inferred Children:
Darkie Smith -- dorcas
Jeremiah Smith
Ethel Smith
Darkie Smith
Household Members Age
Sarah Downes
32
Dorothy Downes
2
This record is officially closed.

This record is officially closed.

Mabel M N Smith
35
This record is officially closed.

This record is officially closed.

Phyllis M Birch
15
Job Smith 51
Comfort Smith
52

Name: Comfort Davies
Registration Date: Apr 1919
[May 1919]
[Jun 1919]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Bedwellty
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Spouse: Job Smith
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 275

Name: Dorcas Smith
Baptism Age: 0
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 31 Dec 1918
Baptism Date: 26 Jan 1919
Baptism Place: Aberystruth, Monmouthshire, Wales
Father:
Job Smith
Mother:
Comfort Smith

Comfort
Last name Davies
Event year 1919
Birth year 1883
Marriage year 1919
Spouse's first name(s) Job
Spouse's last name Smith
County Monmouthshire
Country Wales
Marriage place Nantyglo
Page 11
Age 36
Banns year -
Marriage date 07 Apr 1919
Spouse's age 37
Spouse's birth year 1882
Spouse's father's last name Smith
Spouse's father's first name(s) Henry ------
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Record

Kuros

Kuros Report 13 Mar 2021 11:33

Thanks, that takes it back a bit further again. I wonder if they were all living together under the same canvas!

Annie

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 17:31

1911 Census For England & Wales

Deans Common Mitcheldean Gloucestershire, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Job Smith Head Married Male 25 1886 Labourer Worcestershire Tenbury
Enos Smith Son - Male 5 1906 - Glos East Dean
Esther Smith Daughter - Female 3 1908 - Glos East Dean
Caroline Smith Daughter - Female 0 1911 - Glos East Dean
>>Jeremiah Smith Brother Single Male 19 1892 Labourer Worcestershire Tenbury
Timothy Smith Brother Single Male 16 1895 Labourer Worcestershire Tenbury
Brookie Smith Brother Single Male 15 1896 Labourer Worcestershire Tenbury
Thomas Smith Brother - Male 12 1899 - Glos N K
Herbert Smith Uncle Married Male 32 1879 Labourer N K
William Smith Cousin - Male 21 1890 Labourer N K
Rosannah Smith Cousin - Female 18 1893 - N K
Sidney Smith Cousin - Male 16 1895 Labourer N K
Trabina Smith Mother Widow Female 47 1864 - N K

Wow what a wealth of names and relationships. Gypsies under canvas is written at the bottom.

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 17:17

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Caravan, Stoke Lane, Stoke Prior, Leominster, Herefordshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Smith Head Married Male 54 1837 Tin Worker England
Caroline Smith Wife Married Female 36 1855 - Worcestershire, England
Eliza Smith Daughter Single Female 24 1867 - Gloucestershire, England
Henry Smith Son Single Male 13 1878 - Newchurch, Radnorshire, Wales
Esther Smith Daughter Single Female 9 1882 - Fownhope, Herefordshire, England
Kate Smith Daughter Single Female 7 1884 - Worcestershire, England
Harriet Smith Daughter Single Female 5 1886 - Worcestershire, England
Enoch Smith Son - Male 3 1888 - Westley, Worcestershire, England
>>Job Smith Grandson - Male 7 1884 - Tenbury, Worcestershire, England

?? Maybe not.

First name(s) Job
Last name Smith
Birth quarter 2
Birth year 1884
Mother's maiden name Laverage
District Tenbury
County Worcestershire
Country England
Volume 6C
Page 285

Kuros

Kuros Report 12 Mar 2021 16:58

Ye gods! I would never have imagined where this would take us. Thank you so much. ErikaH did mention they might have been gypsies. I'm going to look up those newspaper reports now and copy them.

Annie

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 16:54

??

England & Wales Births 1837-2006

First name(s) Enos
Last name Smith
Birth quarter 2
Birth year 1886
Mother's maiden name Smith
District Weobley
County Herefordshire
Country England
Volume 6A
Page 526

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 16:36


SUN•DIAL STOLEN FROM CHURCHYARD.-At the Leominster County Polioe Court, on Wednesday, Enos Smith, a gipsy, was charged with stealing a sun-dial from Middleton Churchyard between the 17th and 22nd April, valued at £2, the property of the Vicar
09 May 1911 - Tenbury Wells Advertiser - Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, England

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 16:31

???

ARREST OF TWO GAMEKEEPERS- ... which took place there was a struggle for the loaded guns which the keepers carried. One of the guns was discharged, and Enos Smith, a gipsy, received the shot in the arm. He was so badly injured that amputation was necessary, and he died early on Thursday....
21 November 1911 - Tenbury Wells Advertiser - Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, England



"...the arrest of the accused, the charge was one of wounding two men of the gipsy class, Job Smith and Annes (or Enos) Smith. Since then Enos Smith had died from his wound, and it had become necessary to consider a slightly different form of charge, namely, that of manslaughter..."
12 December 1911 - Tenbury Wells Advertiser - Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, England


Job, Annes, Hodgkins were all brothers. Annes, called Enos was 25 and had a tent at Woodhall Common, Staunton-on- Wye.

"There was also there, living in tents, his brother Hodgkins and the women and children."

Job was a hawker and labourer who usually lived in a tent at Sutton St Nicholas. Another brother Jeremiah, usually lived in a tent at Brynmawr but was at Woodhall Common in a tent with Caroline Johns when the incident took place.




FATAL RESULT TO GUNSHOTS- .......A scuffle took place, and Enos Smith and his brother took hold of the gun. During the struggle in a bush the gun went off, the charge entering Enos Smith's left arm and his brother's right arm. At the hospital Enos Smith's arm was amputated, and after ...
23 November 1911 - Ross Gazette - Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, England

This one says he leaves "a widow and 3 children of tender age, the youngest being 12 months old."

Kuros

Kuros Report 12 Mar 2021 16:14

Oohh, you've been busy while I've been away. Thank you. It's looking very much like this is Harriet's family. Innocent was, according to the family, Harriet's brother but I can't find a trace of him. My friend's mum, bless her, is in her late 80s and things are coming back to her bit by bit but she says she knew very little of the family because they never had much to do with them. She said there was also a sister, Naomi, who went to New Zealand but I haven't had chance to follow that up yet. It's beginning to look like Caroline had four children with Enos and another ten with William. It also seems that William was sixteen when they married and Harriet had Ethel when she was fourteen.

Annie

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 12 Mar 2021 15:05

One of three marriages which Ancestry links to that 1911:

Caroline Davies
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Caroline Davies
Spouse Surname: Gibbs
Registration Year: 1914
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Bromyard
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 1221
Records on Page:
Name
Caroline Davies
William Gibbs


Ancestry's transcription of 1939 gives Caroline's DOB as 14 aug 1887.
The figure is hard to read on the image - could be 14, 21, or 24

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 14:51

The 1911 that you found for a possible Harriet.

1911 Census For England & Wales

Deans Common Mitcheldean Gloucestershire, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Enos Smith Head - Male 23 1888 Labourer Worcestershire Tenbury
Caroline Smith Wife Married Female 24 1887 - Gloucestershire N K
Harriett Smith Daughter - Female 2 1909 - Gloucestershire East Dean
Ethel Smith Daughter - Female 5 1906 - Glos East Dean
Jemima Smith Daughter - Female 0 1911 - Glos East Dean

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 12 Mar 2021 14:49

Re the family with parents Enos and Caroline ( Enos = Innocent ???);

Posting 1911 for our reference:

Harriett Smith
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Harriett Smith
Age in 1911: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1909
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: East Dean, Gloucestershire
Civil Parish: East Dean
Country: England
Street Address: Deans Common, Mitcheldean, Gloucestershire
Registration District Number: 323
Sub-registration District: East Dean
ED, institution, or vessel: 01
Piece: 15223
Household Members:
Name Age
Enos Smith 23
Caroline Smith 24
Harriett Smith 2
Ethel Smith 5
Jemima Smith 3/12

All the children said to be born in East Dean.


????
SMITH, ETHEL SARAH mmn DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1908 S Quarter in KINGTON Volume 06A Page 518

EDIT: Maybe not - two years younger than in 1911.


????
SMITH, JEMIMA mmn DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in KINGTON Volume 06A Page 470

I can't see Harriett's birth.


Not at all sure about those births - wrong RD.
A tree on Ancestry says Caroline's name was Davies - but I don't see a marriage.

alviegal

alviegal Report 12 Mar 2021 14:31

1939 for the Gibbs. Also Caroline Gibbs 14 Aug 1887 and 4 closed records underneath.

In Buildings Adjioning Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England


(1 person)
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Gibbs 01 Mar 1898 Male Hop-Picker Married 104 40

In Buildings Adjioning Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England


First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Caroline Gibbs 21 Aug 1887 Female Hop-Picker Married 104 41

Kuros

Kuros Report 12 Mar 2021 13:30

I'm being very cautious here but I've stumbled across a Harriet Smith, born in East Dean, Gloucestershire, father Enos, mother Caroline. The birth is right and it's giving me a link to the death I've got. The 1911 also lists a sibling, Ethel and this was the name given to Harriet's daughter, the half-sister. It gives the exact death date as 30 January 2001. As I said, I'm treating it very suspiciously for the moment and I'll have a closer look at it later.

Annie

Edit: going back to the hop-pickers, it seems that Harriet's mother may have been widowed and married a William Gibbs so the couple on the 1939 could be her mother and step-father This would be why she married as Gibbs but her maiden name was Smith. Speculation, maybe, but worth a closer look, I think.

Kuros

Kuros Report 12 Mar 2021 13:18

I wondered about the closed records. The only marriage which fits is to a Harriet Gibbs but the children's mother's maiden name is Smith on their birth certs. Hopefully, it will give me Harriet's father's name, although there's no guarantee of that! I've also learned that the half sister shared a mother with the others. I'll send for the cert this afternoon. I must leave this now to go shopping or we won't be eating this weekend! I'm grateful for your interest and help.

Annie

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 12 Mar 2021 12:45

I thought this was about finding Harriet's antecedents?

The only way to have even a glimmer of a chance is to get a copy of the marriage cert

As for the one year difference in info re birth year..........that's by no means unusual.

BTW, there are two closed records immediately below Harriet's record on the 1939 register. MAY be connected, but no way of knowing for certain

Kuros

Kuros Report 12 Mar 2021 12:35

Thanks, ErikaH, the 1939 is now looking possible for our Harriet, although there is a discrepancy with the year of birth. She's not with Abraham on the 1939. I'm going to look closer at that Gibbs family, probably coincidence as you say but I've learned not to rule out anything in this game. I'm going to assume the death record is correct for now until I can prove otherwise.

Annie

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 12 Mar 2021 12:22

Re-posting from page one - feedback would be good

With no clue about Harriet's birth year, finding her will be difficult, to say the least

there is NO birth for Innocent with either surname - what is your 'source'?

???????????
1939
In Buildings Adjoining Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England
Harriet Arnold 27 Jul 1907 Female Hop-Picker Married 104 61

Further up the page are a family named Gibbs, but it's probably sheer concidence

Kuros

Kuros Report 12 Mar 2021 12:13

I found a death record for a Harriet Arnold in 2001 but in Monmouth district which is quite a way from where she lived. However, I had some feedback from my friend's mother who remembered that Harriet was about 93 when she died and she died in hospital. The nearest hospital is in Monmouth district so it's possible that this death is our Harriet's. It gives her date of birth as July 27th 1908. I'm going to go along with this for a while and see where it gets me.

Annie