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I am trying to help the great great granddaughter of Gertrude, and was given this information by her. I am labouring under the diffculty that she is not very communacative, so it takes some time to get replies from her. Did you see my earlier comment that Eleanor's address in the 1911 is the same as that on Edith Violet's marriage certificate?

That only proves that Edith Violet's father was James Hill, a steel dresser.

Gertrude's father was also a James Hill , a steel dresser - but from the online records, we don't know if he was the same one.

I wonder if your friend knows definitely that Edith Violet and Elizabeth Ethel were Gertrude's sisters through family knowledge or documentation, or if she has just assumed that from the same online searches that we've done.

If we're looking at the same Gertrude in all the records posted, her year of birth varies from 1880 to 1888.

The mother's name is a mystery.
Looking at the 1891 census (if that's the right family) , the three youngest children, all born in Sheffield, all have mmn Cropper, but the older ones , all born Manchester, seem to have mmn Smith - except Walter. Can't find his birth with either mmn.

If Elizabeth and Eleanor are the same person - and they do seem to be, going by the length of her marriage stated in 1911, assuming the Smith marriage to be the correct one - then the name Cropper is unexplained.

Also, just as Gertrude has the extra name Elsie in 1911 only, Edith only has the middle name Violet from 1911 onwards, as far as the records show.

Elizabeth Ethel was born 1891 - but she's not with Elizabeth, Arthur, Walter, and Edith in 1901.

I may be nit-picking - but some things don't quite tie up.

Now you can see why I turned for help here :) I've been going round in circles with this family for ages.

A witness on Gertrude's marriage certificate was Edith, I had assumed that was Edith Violet, and a witness on Ethel's certiicate was Robert James Blezard, Gertrude's husband.

Sorry to keep posting in bits, just adding as I find - the other witness for Gertrude was Ernest Wood, who married Edith. On Edith's cert her address was the same as that of Eleanor, Edith and Ethel in the 1911.

The info about the marriage witnesses does seem to show they were sisters.

First name(s) Elizabeth Ethel
Last name Hill
Birth date 24 Jun 1891
Baptism date 29 Jul 1891
Baptism place Attercliffe
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Record set Yorkshire Baptisms
Denomination Anglican
Father's first name(s) James
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Father's last name -
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies
Archive reference PR 28/22


First name(s) Edith
Last name Hill
Birth date 01 Dec 1886
Baptism date 16 Jan 1887
Baptism place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Denomination Anglican
Record set Yorkshire Baptisms
Page 266
Father's first name(s) James
Father's last name -
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth


First name(s) Arthur
Last name Hill
Birth date 14 Oct 1884
Baptism date 26 Nov 1884
Baptism place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
Denomination Anglican
Record set Yorkshire Baptisms
Page 170
Father's first name(s) James
Father's last name -
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth

Name: Ethel Hill...................15 Wainwright Street, Shop Assistant
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 26
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1893
Marriage Date: 25 Jun 1919
Marriage Place: Miles Platting, St John The Evangelist, Manchester, England
Father: James Hill........deceased (Steel fitter)
Spouse: Harold Greaves
Reference Number: M194/1/2/3
Archive Roll: 865

Witnesses: James Robert Blezard and Annie Greaves

HILL, WALTER SMITH
GRO Reference: 1878 S Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 415

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Baird Place, Manchester, Lancashire, England
James Hill Head - Male 25 1846 (Iron Dresser()- Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Hill Wife - Female 25 1846 - Lancashire, England
William Hill Son - Male 1 1870 - Lancashire, England
Mary Jan* Hill Daughter - Female 0 1871 - Lancashire, England



Name: James Hill........(Dresser)
Birth Year: abt 1845
Marriage Date: 25 Oct 1868
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: John Hill..............Mechanic
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Smith, age 19
Spouse's Father's Name: James Smith...........Moulder
Address for both 9, Bradley Street
Witnesses: William Hankinson, Jane Hankinson

HILL, Elizabeth Ethel (of 16 Fell Street Brightside Lane, born 1891-06-24).
Baptised July 29, 1891, by G Depledge at Christ Church, Attercliffe.
Parents name(s) are Elizabeth & James (Steel Dresser).
Note: ~
Godparents: ~ :Page No 41 :Reg No 321

Hill, Herbert (of 15 Kelvin St, born ~).
Baptised December 27, 1882, by C R Killick at St Philips Church, Shalesmoor.
Parents name(s) are Elizabeth & James (Iron Dresser).
Note:
Godparents: ~ :Page No 364 :Reg No 2909

(same address in 1881 census posted)


?? HILL, HERBERT CROPPER
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 320

HILL, HERBERT 3
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 327

ErikaH, thank you so much for all this information - I will study it in detail and see how it all fits together.

ErikaH, this returns to the problem of their mother's name being Elizabeth, whereas in the 1911, same address as on Edith's marriage certificate, the mother's name was given as Eleanor. I can only assume she used both names, as so often seems to have happened in the past.

So to sum up, we know that James married Elizabeth Smith and had children with him in Manchester. When they move to Sheffield, later children are born under the MN of Cropper but as we can see from baptism records above, mother is still Elizabeth.

In 1911, Elizabeth now seems to be known as Eleanor as the details all seem to match, the marriage in 1868, place of birth and age. All very confusing.


1911 Census For England & Wales
104 Gunson Street Oldham Road Manchester, Manchester, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Eleanor Hill Head
Married Female 60 1851 - Manchester Lanc
Edith Violet Hill Daughter
Single Female 23 1888 House holdduties Sheffield Yorks
Elizabeth Ethel Hill Daughter
Single Female 19 1892 Domestic servant Sheffield Yorks

Married 42 years, 11 children born, 9 still living.

Has anyone found Gertrude in 1901 or have I just missed that?

I've scoured the 1901 census using every variation I can think of - but no sign of her.

Now I'm just wondering whether Gertrude was an illegitimate child, perhaps an 'inter family adoption'.....there is this birth, no mother's maiden name given

HILL, GERTRUDE ELSIE -
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 370

There is this baptism at St Peter & St Paul, Sheffield (Image on FMP)

First name(s) Elsie Gertrude
>>>>Mother's first name(s) Annie
Last name Hill
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Birth year 1889
Country England
>>>Birth date 09 Oct 1889
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies
Baptism year 1893
Archive reference PR-138-2-50
>>>Baptism date 23 May 1893
>>>Abode 207 London Road
>>>Occupation Left blank
Page 235
Baptism place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
Record set Yorkshire Baptisms
Denomination Anglican
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
>>>Father's first name(s) FMP has transcribed it as Robert, but looks like Ernest to me, which has been crossed out
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Father's last name -
Collections from England, Great Britain

The following Hill family where living at 207 London Road in 1891 Census but I can't see Annie or Elsie Gertrude

William H Hill Head
Married Male 46 1845 Fruiterer Haddenham, Buckinghamshire, England
Sarah A Hill Wife
Married Female 45 1846 - Kingsthorpe, Northamptonshire, England
Sarah A Hill Daughter
Single Female 22 1869 Assistant fruiterer Glinton, Northamptonshire, England
Richard Hill Son
Single Male 19 1872 Assistant fruiterer Thorney, Cambridgeshire, England
Walter Hill Son
- Male 13 1878 Assistant fruiterer Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Miriam Hill Daughter
- Female 12 1879 Assistant fruiterer Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Ada Hill Daughter
- Female 10 1881 Scholar Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Harry Hill Son
- Male 4 1887 Scholar Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Beatrice Hill Daughter
- Female 2 1889 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

In the 1881 census for James Hill and wife Elizabeth and various children, there is a Gertrude aged 5 months, but there is a death record for Gertrude Hill aged 1 in 1881 Sheffield. Presumably the Gertrude I am looking for was a mark II version. Unfortunately I can find no proof of her existence prior to her marriage in 1908. Dates of birth for Gertrude: Marriage cert - age 23 in 1908 = 1885. 1911 census also implies 1885. 1939 register states 11 Oct 1887.

The "married 42 years" ties in with the marriage date of James and Elizabeth of October 1868.

I'm trying to find the 11 children stated n the 1911, but am going round in circles again.

With regards to the Cropper/Smith mystery there is this birth which I believe was Elizabeth the mother

SMITH, ELIZABETH CROPPER MMN KERWIN
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 20 Page 562

Perhaps Elizabeth didn't know whether to use Smith or Cropper!