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I have a marriage between
James Johnston Porteous
b1888 Scotland
d 1967
m 1913
Elizabeth Celia Anderson
b oct 1887
I have been looking for any children from this marriage but only found 2

Jean Margaret Porteous( I have this birth cert which names her father as James Johnston Porteous)
b 1931 st pancreas london

William J Porteous
b 7 Feb 1933 Finsbury, London

Given that they married in 1913, I find it strange that they did not have any children until 1931 some 18 years later. I have tried to locate them in 1921 to see if there were perhaps earlier births that died young but have not managed to find them.

In 1939 the parents are in London but the children are at different addresses in Ripendon, Yorks. That maybe because of the war, they were sent to safer locations maybe?

I did look at the 1939 original census but its very hard to read as there is a line through James Porteous??
James was born in Scotland originally but they married in Wednesbury.

Does the 1921 census not cover Scotland?

So my quest is were there any other children born earlier to James & Elizabeth given the 18 year gap?

Any suggestions or help please would be appreciated.
Thanks

Florence in the hebrides

Scotland released their part of the 2921 census later than England/ Wales, but it is now out. Probably on Scotlands People.

Elizabeth was quite old when she had those 2 children. You need to find out where they lived after they married to give you a clue as to where to look for more births.
I presume you did check out freebmd? Have you looked for wills in case an older child was the executor?

Here is a written transcription of James' 1939 Register entry

First name(s) James J
County London
Last name(s) Porteous
Country England
Birth date 24 Jan 1888
E. D. letter code ASKO
Birth day 24
Schedule 112
Birth month 1
Schedule sub number 1
Birth year 1888
Archive reference RG101/0484E/009/30
Sex Male
Piece number 0484E
Marital status Married
Item number 9
Occupation Railway Buffet Attd
Line number 30
Address 13 Wakefield Street, Bloomsbury, Camden
Category Census, land & surveys
Place St Pancras
Subcategory Census
Borough / district St Pancras
Collections from Great Britain, England

Ty for the info.

Sorry I gave incorrect info. I found the marriage on Scotlands people and they married in Forres in 1913 not Wednesbury, that's where there daughter jean married.

So it maybe they had earlier children in Scotland before moving south later on.

1921 is on Scotlands People website for which you can purchase credits to view the info

All births in Scotland are on the same site, but do NOT include MMN

Oh ty ErikaH for that. I have just found the death for James in 1967 in Leith Scotland so although they were in England in 1939, it looks like they may have returned at some stage.
There is also a death for an Elizabeth Porteous in 1960 in leith.

i shall find the 1921 on Scotlands people and pay to view just to see who was living with them.

If ages given on the census are correct, then this looks like them in 1921, with a daughter Alice.

PORTEOUS JAMES
1921
M
33
125/ 2/ 8
Alves
Moray

PORTEOUS ELIZABETH
1921
F
34
125/ 2/ 8
Alves
Moray


PORTEOUS ALICE
1921
F
4
125/ 2/ 8
Alves
Moray


There are no other children with them.

Re the Alves family above -

Here's Alice's death:

PORTEOUS
ALICE
93
mmn ANDERSON
F
2010
280 / 342
Elgin



This will be her parents' marriage:

PORTEOUS JAMES JOHNSTON
ANDERSON ELIZABETH ROBER. . . . .
1913
137 / 43
Forres

Elizabeth's middle name isn't Celia, but the marriage is in 1913 in Forres.


I don't know where Alice was born - can't see a record in Scotland or England/Wales.

Elizabeth's birth:

ANDERSON ELIZABETH ROBER. . . . .
mmn ANDREW
F
1886
125 / 29
Alves


In 1939 Register, the names Cecilia Elizabeth have been added in green ink at a later date:

Elizabeth Porteous
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Elizabeth Porteous [Cecilia Elizabeth Porteous]
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Birth Date 26 Oct 1887
Residence Date 1939
Address 13 Wakefield St
Residence Place St Pancras, London, England
Occupation Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number 31
Schedule Number 112
Sub Schedule Number 2
Enumeration District Asko
Borough St Pancras
Registration district 9/2
Inferred Spouse
James J Porteous
Household Members (Name) Gender
James J Porteous Male
Elizabeth Porteous Female
Gertrude Plume Female
John Therwell Male


James's 1939 entry has been scored through in red ink, because he's been listed as female by mistake, and then he's been re-entered as male on another page, which is the one posted earlier.

Argyllgran, i bought credits and viewed the census.
Alice was born in Lanark Glasgow.
Her parents were living with Elizabeths father and his son at 53 gateside

Think celia is incorrect as on another record it said rober?

Anyway, i found them on the census and it proves they had another child. There may be others. Also Alice must have stayed in Scotland and thats why shes not on the 1939 census then

Both Jean & William married and I have all their details already.

Thanks for everyones help.

Florence -

"Rober" will be just the beginning of a longer name, such as Robertson.
You'd need to buy a copy of her birth or marriage cert to see the full name.

As already said, I can't see any sign of Alice's birth anywhere in Scotland, England or Wales.
Maybe she wasn't registered as Alice ?? Or maybe she was adopted - just a thought.

An ancestry tree has James JohnstonE Porteous b 1888 Linlithgow
Married Elizabeth Robertson Anderson 1913

1911 - said to be in the Military in England age 22 b Edinburgh with 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders (although form may show them in "India!)

Residence from at least 1952 - Edinburgh.

Elizabeth Robertson Porteous' death cert. from that tree shows a 1958 death in Glasgow and notes that she was formerly married to James Johnston Porteous from whom she was divorced. Death registered by her brother R Anderson.

Parents William Anderson a Master Tailor and Jane Anderson nee Andrews - both deceased.

The tree shows birth of a son Wiiliam Anderson and of a daughter Alice Porteous 1910 - no place of birth shown.

William Anderson born Forres, Moray 1907 and refers to ½ siblings Alice, Jean and William - all surname Porteous


?? - Scotland's People has an Alice May Anderson mmn Anderson b 1908 Leith South.

Will have a quick look at other trees - not a lot of info.

Re the info posted above by Greyghost:

Two possible births for the William Anderson 1907, one in Forres, the other in Alves. No mmn given for either.


ANDERSON
WILLIAM
M
1907
125 / 13
Alves

ANDERSON
WILLIAM
M
1907
137 / 23
Forres


Elizabeth's death:

PORTEOUS ELIZABETH R [also listed as Anderson]
71
F
1958
644 / 7 / 900
Kelvin

James and Elizabeth in Edinburgh from at least 1946;

James J Porteous
in the Edinburgh, Scotland, Electoral Registers, 1832-1966
Name James J Porteous
Residence Date 1946
Street Address 34 Balcarres Street, 10
Residence Place Edinburgh, Scotland


In Balcarres Street until at least 1958, with Elizabeth called Elizabeth.

1960-61, James and "Cecilia" are at 19 Jamaica Street, Edinburgh.
1962, James and Cecilia at 22 Jamaica Street.
1963-66, they're at 10a Leslie Place.



There's a Cecilia Porteous (sometimes listed as Mrs Cecilia Porteous) , living without any other Porteous of voting age, at other addresses in Edinburgh from at least 1923 to 1937, but whether that's Elizabeth or some other woman or women, there's no way of knowing.

Maybe James was abroad with the army.

National Archives has these 3 listings

Reference: WO 372/23/155129
Description:
Medal card of Porteous, J
Corps Regiment No Rank
Seaforth Highlanders 9489 Serjeant
Date: 1914-1920
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

Reference: WO 372/16/44706
Description:
Medal card of Porteous, J
Corps Regiment No Rank
Seaforth Highlanders 255 Private
Date: 1914-1920
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

Reference: WO 372/16/44707
Description:
Medal card of Porteous, J
Corps Regiment No Rank
Seaforth Highlanders 9453 Lance Corporal
Military Foot Police 35015 Lance Corporal
Military Foot Police P5015 Lance Corporal
Date: 1914-1920
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

In view of the Edinburgh ERs I posted for James and Elizabeth up to 1958, which is when Elizabeth died (though they'd been divorced before that if the Ancestry tree is correct ) , and for James and Cecilia from 1960 onwards, Cecilia was James's second wife.

PORTEOUS JAMES JOHNSTONE
MALAUNE CECILIA E
1951
685 / 1 / 925
Haymarket

But then, if they married in 1951, the Elizabeth with James on the ER entries from 1951 until 1958 must actually be Cecilia Elizabeth.
Perhaps James didn't bother to notify the ER, until after Elizabeth's death in 1958.

If the altered name from Elizabeth to Cecilia Elizabeth on the 1939 Register has been applied to the correct woman, then James and the first Elizabeth must have divorced, or at least separated, between 1933 (when the son William was born) and 1939.

I don't see any other record for Cecilia E Malaune.


ADDED:
I was curious enough about this to have a look at Elizabeth's birth cert.
She was born on 2 Oct 1886, whereas Cecilia was born 26 Oct 1887, if the 1939 Register is correct.


Unfortunately the 1951 marriage to Cecilia is too recent to allow the image to be viewed online. It would have been good to have more info about her.

Ah ty ArgyllGran, I knew I had seen the name Cecilia somewhere and with both having Elizabeth in their names, that's very confusing.

So James married twice.

Alice also has death registered as Falconer.
Surname Forename Age at death Mother's Maiden Name Gender Year Ref RD Name
FALCONER
ALICE
93
ANDERSON
F
2010
280 / 342
ELGIN

------------------------
This marriage with surname Anderson also registered as Porteous

Surname Forename Spouse Surname Spouse Forename Year Ref RD Name
FALCONER
SCOTT
ANDERSON
ALICE
1961
644 / 7 / 356
KELVIN

FALCONER SCOTT PORTEOUS ALICE1961 644 / 7 / 356 KELVIN

You would have to buy the certificate as less than 75 yers ago

It's interesting that Elizabeth Robertson Porteous's 1958 death is registered by her brother R Anderson.

This is him. Elizabeth was also born at Gateside.

Robert Anderson
in the Scotland, World War I Rolls of Honour, 1914-1918
Name Robert Anderson
Nationality Scottish
Birth Date 17 Mar 1892
Birth Place Gateside, Alves, Forres
Military Date 1914-1918
Military Place France and Belgium
Military Rank or Rate Private
Military Service Number 8079
War World War I
Regiment Seaforth Highlanders and A.p.c.
Enlistment Date 16 Apr 1915
Enlistment Place Elgin
Next of Kin Name William Anderson


Served in France and Belgium with 7th and 8th Bns (KA) Seaforth Highlanders, then transferred to Army Pay Corps, Preston, on 26 Dec 1917.
Wounded in action at Loos, 25 Sept 1915, bullet would left thigh;
then at Ypres, 28 Aug 1917, gunshot wounds in face, left leg and foot, and loss of three inner toes.
Son of William Anderson, Gateside, Alves, and Jane Andrew or Anderson, deceased.
Occupation: clerk.

A possibility re Alice, born 1917 in Glasgow, per 1921 Census:


There's this illegitimate birth in Glasgow:

ANDERSON ALICE
F
1917
644 / 15 / 773
Hutchesontown


I had a look at the birth cert. The unmarried mother was Williamina Anderson, "daughter of a tailor".
The child was then adopted.
Born 10/6/1917.

Elizabeth R Anderson had a sister Williamina.
Their father William was a tailor.

The 1921 census doesn't say Alice was the daughter of James and Elizabeth - only that she was the grand-daughter of Elizabeth's parents.

Perhaps she was Elizabeth's sister's child, and was adopted by Elizabeth and James??

In 1921 Williamina emigrated to Canada:

Williamina Anderson
in the UK and Ireland, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name Williamina Anderson
Gender Female
Departure Age 30
Birth Date abt 1891
Departure Date 18 Jun 1921
Departure Port Scotland
Ship Name Cassandra
Shipping Line Anchor Line
Destination Port Montreal, Canada
Master James Black

Address in UK: Gateside, Alves, Forres.
Occupation: Domestic


Williamina Anderson
in the Canada, Ocean Arrivals (Form 30A), 1919-1924
Name Williamina Anderson
Gender Female
Estimated Birth Year abt 1891
Birth Place Alves By Forres
Age 30
Date of Arrival 29 Jun 1921
Port of Arrival Quebec
Port of Departure Glasgow, Scotland
Ship Name Cassandra


Occupation: housekeeper

She was headed to her "prospective husband" Mr Lewis Duncan, Box 347, Biggar, Saskatchewan.


Lewis is in Biggar as a single man in 1921 Census of Canada.


Williemina Anderson
in the Canada, Newspapers.com™ Marriage Index, 1800s-current
Name Williemina Anderson
Gender Female
Residence Date Abt 1921
Residence Place Adcs . [ Alves ] Scotland
Marriage Date May 1921
Marriage Place Knox
Spouse
Levis [Lewis] Duncan



???
Williamina Duncan
in the Saskatchewan, Canada, Residents Index (SRI), 1800-2012
Name Williamina Duncan
Death Date 1927
Death Place Biggar, Saskatchewan, Canada