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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 5 May 2024 16:25

On the image of the 1850 NY Census above, the husband's first name looks like Danl (abbreviated version of Daniel ??) but I suppose it could be Davd - (abbreviated David)

No occupation is shown.

Ancestry suggests it relates to an immigration record for a Daniel Donbar , born c1808, arriving in NY from Ireland in 1847.

Not that that's anything to go by, as many of Ancestry's suggestions are ludicrous.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 5 May 2024 16:45

The 1855 census does seem close enough to be the same family.

It says that David had been living in NY for 15 years, which would be from 1840, and he was naturalised.
That doesn't fit with the 1838 naturalisation record which said he (if the same person) had been in NY for one year - but I'm willing to believe that the 1855 info isn't accurate.

The 1855 Census also says that Harriet had been in NY for 12 years, and was not naturalised.

However, there aren't any immigration records.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 5 May 2024 16:52

???

Mary Ann Dunbar
in the U.S., Find a Grave® Index, 1600s-Current
Name Mary Ann Dunbar
Death Date May 1853
Cemetery Green-Wood Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place Brooklyn, Kings County, New York, United States of America
Has Bio? N

Jink20

Jink20 Report 5 May 2024 19:03

ArgyllGran Re your 5 May 2024 14:33

First name(s) Harriet
Last name Ruffell
Birth year 1820
Mother's first name(s) -
Father's first name(s) Benjamin
Father's last name Ruffell
Baptism year 1820
Record set Cheshire Diocese Of Chester Parish Baptisms 1538-1911
Baptism date 26 Apr 1820
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Chester, St Michael **********************************************
County Cheshire
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain
Country England

Jink20

Jink20 Report 5 May 2024 19:08

Not to be confused with this Harriet identified previously by ArgyllGran

First name(s) Harriet
Last name Ruffell
Gender Female
Birth year 1836
Country England
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Ruffell
Mother's first name(s) Ann
Baptism year 1836
Record set Cheshire Diocese Of Chester Parish Baptisms 1538-1911
Baptism date 25 Sep 1836
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Chester, St John the Baptist
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
County Cheshire
Collections from England, Great Britain

Jink20

Jink20 Report 5 May 2024 20:22

Further to ArgyllGran Report 5 May 2024 14:33

Death Certificate of Harriet Dunbar aged 29
1 Mar 1859 at Ashtons Bldgs, Lower Bridge St, Chester
shows her as " widow of David Dunbar-Mate Merchant Service"

Informant was Ann Ruffell

alviegal

alviegal Report 5 May 2024 21:06

Chester newspapers of the 12 March 1859 read

DEATHS On the 1st inst. at Bridge Street, Chester, aged 29, Harriet, widow of the late Mr. David Dunbar (chief mate of the ship Driver) who was drowned on his voyage to New York.

Jink20

Jink20 Report 6 May 2024 00:22

Harriet Dunbar
BIRTH
1830
DEATH
1 Mar 1859 (aged 28–29)
BURIAL
Overleigh Old Cemetery
Chester, Cheshire West and Chester Unitary Authority, Cheshire, England
PLOT
G7332

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 May 2024 10:21

Well, I'm glad that's cleared up!
That's definitely the right Harriet's death.
The informant was either her mother or her sister.

The apparent 1820 baptism must be a mistranscription, or else a coincidence:

Harriet Ruffell
Vital • England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
Image Unavailable
Name Harriet Ruffell
Christening Date 26 Apr 1820
Christening Place Of This Parish
Father's Name Benjamin Ruffell
Mother's Name Ann Ruffell
Event Type Other
Image Number 574


Benjamin's daughter in 1841:

Henret Rafferty [ Ruffell on image ]
in the 1841 England Census
Name Henret Rafferty [Harriet Ruffell]
Age 13
Estimated Birth Year abt 1828
Gender Female
Where born Cheshire, England
Civil parish St Michael
Hundred Chester
County/Island Cheshire
Country England
Registration district Great Boughton
Sub-registration district Castle Division
Neighbors
Piece 129
Book 23
Folio 8
Page number 9
Household Members (Name) Age
Benjaman Rafferty 32
Ann Rafferty 34
Henret Rafferty 13
John Rafferty 7
Ann Rafferty 4
Benjamen Rafferty 2


In 1851 Ann is on her own with children Benjamin, Mary, and Elizabeth. Harriet isn't with her.
Benjamin senior , on the night of the census at least, is with the Henshaw family in Woodbank, Cheshire.

However, I've led everyone off track.
Sadly, none of this helps find David Marion's ancestry.

alviegal

alviegal Report 6 May 2024 12:42

Just googling David M Dunbar brings this up from https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/GKX8-CMH/david-m-dunbar-1812-1856

David M Dunbar was born in 1812 as the son of David Dunbar and Mary ann. He had at least 5 daughters with Mary Ann Spears. He died in 1856, at the age of 44.

David Marion Dunbar died at sea, he was the first mate on a clipper ship The Driver in 1856, his son also with the same name was born shortly after his death.


David M Dunbar
Male1812–1856 • Male

Mary Ann Spears
Female1811–Deceased • Female

Children (5)

Mary R Dunbar
Female1833–1911 • Female
Barbara Sellers Dunbar
Female1834–1835 • Female
Margaret Jane Dunbar
Female1836–1837 • Female
Elizabeth Burnett Dunbar
Female1840–Deceased • Female
Ellen Dunbar
Female1845–Deceased • Female

Spouse

David M Dunbar
Male1812–1856 • Male

Harriett Ruffell Dunbar
Female1830–1859 • Female

Children (2)

Ellen Dunbar
Female1845–Deceased • Female

David Marion Dunbar
Male1856–1927 • Male

Parents

David Dunbar
MaleDeceased • Male

Mary ann
FemaleDeceased • Female

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 May 2024 13:34

Off at another tangent!
Re Mary R Dunbar in Alviegal's post above:

I found these records yesterday and discounted them because this woman was apparently born in 1844, and she's not on the 1850 or 1855 censuses with David and Mary Ann or Harriet.

But maybe she lied and was really 11 years older.


Name Mary R. Guiles
Sex Female
Age 67
Birth Year (Estimated) 1844
Birthplace England
Burial Date 13 Nov 1911
Marital Status Widowed
Race White
Father's Name David Dunbar <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's Sex Male
Father's Birthplace England
Mother's Name Mary Shears <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother's Sex Female
Mother's Birthplace England
Event Type Death
Event Date 10 Nov 1911
Event Place Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States
Certificate Number cn 33515
Cemetery Cypress Hills


Mary R Guiles
in the 1910 United States Federal Census
Name Mary R Guiles
Age in 1910 67
Birth Date 1843 [1843]
Birthplace England
Home in 1910 Manhattan Ward 12, New York, New York, USA
Sheet Number 4b
Street West 129 Street
Race White
Gender Female
Immigration Year 1848
Relation to Head of House Head
Marital Status Widowed
Father's Birthplace England
Mother's Birthplace Scotland
Native Tongue English
Home Owned or Rented Rent
Farm or House House
Able to read Yes
Able to Write Yes
Enumeration District Number 0499
Years Married 50
Number of Children Born 5
Number of Children Living 2
Enumerated Year 1910
Neighbors
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Mary R Guiles 67 Head
Ella G Guiles 42 Daughter


1905 census seems badly done - impossible for her to be Richard's mother (must be wife), and Ella's not Richard's sister.

Mary R Guiles
in the New York, U.S., State Census, 1905
Name Mary R Guiles
Birth Year abt 1845
Birth Place United States
Age 60
Gender Female
Race White
Residence Year 1905
Residence Manhattan, New York, New York, USA
Relationship to Head Mother
Assembly District 31
Election District 34
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Richard Guiles 50 Head
Mary R Guiles 60 Mother
Ella G Guiles 35 Sister


Richard Guiles
in the New York, New York, U.S., Extracted Marriage Index, 1866-1937
Name Richard Guiles
Gender Male
Marriage Date 20 Nov 1890
Marriage Place Manhattan, New York, USA
Certificate Number 13181

(No corresponding marriage record for Mary.)

???
Richard Guiles
in the New York, New York, U.S., Extracted Death Index, 1862-1948
Name Richard Guiles
Age 45
Birth Year abt 1860 (doesn't fit with 1905 census )
Death Date 25 Aug 1905
Death Place Manhattan, New York, USA
Certificate Number 27367

Jink20

Jink20 Report 6 May 2024 14:25

I saw a tree on Family Search which suggested Mary Guiles (married name) was the daughter of David M Dunbar (1856), not daughter of David M (1807, Mariner)

It also suggests David (56) had the following children

Thomas Arthur Dunbar
Male
1881–1928

William Dunbar
Male
1883–Deceased

Jessie Dunbar
Female
1886–Deceased

Elizabeth Z Dunbar
Female
1889–Deceased

Dorothy Marion Dunbar
Female
1893–Deceased

David Francis Dunbar
Male
1896–Deceased

Charles Frederick Dunbar
Male
1898–1948

Edna Emily Dunbar
Female
1900–Deceased

Rose Mary Dunbar
Female
1900–Deceased

Edward Kitchener Dunbar
Male
1902–1949

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name Jessie Dunbar
Residence Date 22 April 1895
Residence Place 11 Seaville Street, Cheshire, England ************************
Father's Name David Dunbar
Father's Sex Male
Event Date

from 22 April 1895 to 1905

School Chester, Boughton-St Paul's School

Jink20

Jink20 Report 6 May 2024 14:46

However .........

1891 Census
Search Jessie Dunbar Father David Dunbar

Result

David Dunbar Head Married Male 34 1857 General labourer -
Martha Dunbar Wife Married Female 31 1860 Chester, Cheshire, England
Thomas A Dunbar Son Single Male 10 1881 Scholar Chester, Cheshire,
William Dunbar Son Single Male 8 1883 Scholar Chester, Cheshire,
Jessie Dunbar Daughter Single Female 4 1887 - Chester, Cheshire,
Elizabeth Z Dunbar Daughter Single Female 2 1889- Chester, Cheshire
Edna E Dunbar Daughter Single Female 0 1891 - Chester, Cheshire,


Next rabbit hole...................

Jink20

Jink20 Report 6 May 2024 15:32

"David marion Dunbar who we think was born in 1807 who married Harriet ruffle Dunbar they moved or emigrated to new York in 1846"

At the Ellis Island National Museum of Immigration Foundation’s website the Passenger Search database allows you to look for family members who arrived at the Port of New York from 1820 to 1957.

Of the 53 David Dunbar results, 13 can be discounted as they do not contain a middle initial M or have a different middle name

Of the 40 left, discount those arrivals in the 1900's and not born in England and you are left with -

NAME OF PASSENGER Dunbar, David
PLACE OF BIRTH England
YEAR OF ARRIVAL 1883
AGE AT ARRIVAL 25

Doesn't help.......I know

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 May 2024 16:06

If that's David 1856 on the Ellis Island site, with slightly wrong age, we have to assume that he returned to England before 1891, though I don't see any record of that.

The same record from Ancestry:

David Dunbar
in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name David Dunbar
Gender Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality English
Age 25
Birth Date abt 1858
Place of Origin England
Departure Port Liverpool, England
Destination USA
Arrival Date 14 Apr 1883
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name Baltic

The image shows he was a labourer - but no helpful added info.

There's no record of David 1856 arriving in the UK in the first place (presumably with Harriet, and between 1856 and Harriet's death in 1859) , and no sign of him on censuses before 1891.
Martha and eldest son Thomas are with her parents in 1881.

(I'm discounting the elder of the Church of Latter-day Saints in Galston, Ayrshire in 1881 !)

The FS tree is certainly wrong about Mary Guiles.
Whether she was born 1833 or 1844, she couldn't possibly be a daughter of David 1856.

Jink20

Jink20 Report 6 May 2024 16:42

ArgyllGran-

My bad......replace David (56) with David M Dunbar 1812-1856


Revisited FamilySearch page (computer generated account below)

When Mary R Dunbar was born in 1833, in England, United Kingdom, her father, David M Dunbar, was 21 and her mother, Mary Ann Spears, was 22. She had at least 1 son and 4 daughters with Robert Guiles. She lived in New York City, New York, United States in 1910 and Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States in 1910.

Jink20

Jink20 Report 6 May 2024 23:11

David Dunbar (56) attested at the age of 15 at Chester 15th March 1872

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1114/images/miuk1914a_084225-02106?pId=311410

re-enlisted 7th August 1894 address 35 Binns Road, Edge Lane, Liverpool having served 12 years 2nd West Yorkshire Regt. (14th Foot, 2nd Battalion)

1872- 5/10/78 Home
10/78-12/79 East Indies
12/79- 8/80 Afghanistan
8/80-1/86 East Indies
1-86 Home

NOK listed as Cousin I.E ? Clark, St Mary, Chester

This would account for why he is not on the 1881 Census

Perhaps the Cousin (if we're lucky) is the brother/sister of David M 1812 which could help identify David M's parents/ POB/DOB

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 7 May 2024 09:04

There's also this, posted by Shirley on page 1.
Can't see if there are more details, as I have no sub to Fold3:


David M Dunbar
in the Scotland, Ireland and Wales, Militia Attestation Papers, 1800-1915
Name David M Dunbar
Gender Male
Marital Status Single
Age 31
Birth Year abt 1856
Birth Place St Marys, Chester, Cheshire, England
Enlistment Date 4 Jul 1887
Enlistment Place Scotland
Regiment 91st Foot (Argyll & Sutherland Hldrs)
Service Number 1230


"Birthplace" is apparently wrong, but may be the fault of the transcription.
Sometimes residence is transcribed as birthplace.


ADDED:
Yes, that's our man. Was previously in 2nd West Yorks Regt:

David Dunbar
in the UK, British Army World War I Pension Records 1914-1920
Name David Dunbar
Gender Male
Residence Age 58
Birth Date abt 1856
Birth Place New York
Marriage Date 2 Sep 1878
Marriage Place St Marry's Chester
Document Year 1914
Regiment Name Lyl and Lane
Regimental Number 4435
Number of Images 5
Household List (Name) Relation to Soldier
David Dunbar
Martha Fairbrother Spouse
Rose Mary Dunbar Child
Edward Kitchman Dunbar Child

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 7 May 2024 09:18

Interestingly, in the record you posted, Jink20, his occupation is given as "musician".

I don't see any I E Clark in St Mary's in 1871 census. Lots of other Clarks!

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 7 May 2024 09:31

Possibility for an E Clark, if not I E Clark;
However, it doesn't help with the Dunbar side of the family

Henry Clark
in the 1871 England Census
Name Henry Clark
Age 27
Estimated Birth Year 1844
Relation Head
Gender Male
Where born Cheshire England
Civil parish Trinity
County/Island Cheshire
Country England
Registration district Chester
Sub-registration district Chester Cathedral
ED, institution, or vessel 4
Household schedule number 17
Piece 3730
Folio 43
Page number 4
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Clark 27 Head
Elizabeth Clark 26 Wife
Sarah Clark 72 Mother
Elizabeth Powell 40 Sister
Albert Clark 1 Son
Henry Powell 11 Nephew
Anne Kuffel [Ruffel] 67 Mother-in-law [ widow of Benjamin ]


Henry Clarke
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name Henry Clarke
Registration Year 1864 [1864]
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Great Boughton
Inferred County Cheshire
Volume 8a
Page 484
Records on Page (Name)
Henry Clarke
Elizabeth Ruffell


Elizabeth is a sister of Harriet Ruffell.

A cousin of David 1856 should be one of Elizabeth's children - unless "cousin" is used loosely.. If the NOK was named in 1872, her children would be too young.