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I have been looking for my biological great-great-grandfather, John’s birth certificate, for a few years. No luck. He was born in Poplar, Middlesex in late 1857. According to the 1881 census that he was with his first wife, Sarah, and their son, Robert. His father was John James Allen snr, a butcher from John’s two marriage certificates. I assume his mother’s surname would be Brion from my DNA results. Most of Brion ancestors were from Buckinghamshire. I have four copies of his children’s birth certificates from Queensland, Australia. John signed two of four birth certificates stating that he was born in London, Middlesex. His 2nd wife signed another two of four birth certificates stating that he was born in Berkshire and Chaham, Buckinghamshire.

I have his death certificate from Queensland, to show that his parents’ names were blank. What a disappointment.

Any help would be appreciated to find a birth certificate of John James Allen jnr for me if possible, please.

As there were no penalties for not registering births until 1875, odds are his simply wasn’t registered.

There is no Brion/Allen marriage which would fit as you’ve no doubt already found.

Have you found JJA on any census before 1881?

Or his ALLEGED father ANYWHERE?

1881 for ease of reference:

John James Allen
in the 1881 England Census
Name John James Allen
Age 24
Estimated Birth Year abt 1857
Relationship to Head Head
Spouse Sarah Ann Allen
Gender Male
Where born Poplar, Middlesex, England
Civil parish Heigham
County/Island Norfolk
Country England
Street Address Dereham Road St Michaels Rectory
Marital Status Married
Occupation Policeman
Registration District Norwich
ED, institution, or vessel 30a
Neighbors
Piece 1953
Folio 73
Page number 4
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John James Allen 24 Head
Sarah Ann Allen 24 Wife - Norwich
Robert Allen Son 5 months - Norwich

This man in Hackney Workhouse is a butcher - which proves absolutely nothing!
No other Allens with him.

John Allen
in the 1861 England Census
Name John Allen
Gender Male
Age 42
Relation Butcher
Estimated Birth Year 1819
Where born Sutton, Surrey, England
Civil parish Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish Homerton
County/Island Middlesex
Country England
Registration District Hackney
Sub-registration district Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel Hackney Workhouse
Neighbors
Household schedule number 1
Piece 159
Folio 146
Page number 1

Is this his migration?

Name John Allen
Age 31
Birth Year abt 1857
Place of Origin Buckinghamshire, England
Ship Name Quetta
Port of Departure London, England
Port of Arrival Brisbane
Arrival Date 10 Dec 1888

1881 gives his age as 24........born no later than 3rd April 1857 if it's accurate

Could the assumed Brion connection be a red herring?

How trustworthy are DNA results? Not something I've investigated.

Making assumptions can be dangerous. I prefer to rely on ‘hard’ evidence which can be verified ;-) ;-)

It might be helpful if you could give us details of proven Brion relatives in your tree

Nit-picking -
there's no such place as Chaham (or even Chatham) in Buckinghamshire.

The nearest match is Chesham

I've just spent an hour or so reading through JJA's son Leonard's service record.
Pages and pages of it - fascinating.

He was killed in action in 1917.
At attestation, he had named JJA as his NOK, but later changed that to his brother John, who was also the sole beneficiary of his Will.
The Army had tried to write to JJA to let him know of Leonard's various illnesses, wounds, and death, but letters were returned as "unknown".

JJA seems to have become estranged from his sons, as they didn't know his current address.
Apparently JJA was living in a very rural area where mail was only delivered once a week, so that he missed the 7-day deadline for picking up undelivered mail.
When he finally received the news of Leonard's death - via local gossip, by the sound of it - he wrote to the authorities to ask if it was true, and to give them his up-to-date address.

There are various letters to-ing and fro-ing at cross purposes. Brothers John and Robert each requested the authorities to send Leonard's medals to them, but they were sent to JJA who was the most entitled to them, as the closest blood relative, even though not named as NOK.

In spite of the fact that most WW1 records no longer exist, I'm always impressed that, even through the chaos of WW1, so many detailed records were kept of so many men constantly being moved here and there, information sent, and letters received and replied to.

Hi ErikaH, thanks for your time.

i see about no penalties for not registering births until 1875. Thanks for letting me know.

Unfortunately, there are no censuses before 1881. I tried to find it :-(

You are right that I could not find Brion/Allen marriage. Miss Brion might be married to someone else before John Allen snr then she would re-married to him.

Yes, John was migrated to Queensland with his second wife, Elizabeth and 2 sons (from his first marriage). I have some copies of the original list of passengers from the Queensland Archives.

Yes, it could be Chesham in Buckinghamshire. Maybe his second wife could be mistaken to write it down.

I have heaps of Brion families with my father, my brother and my DNA results. We have about 11 DNA matches with Brion and Weller. I think John might relate to Sarah Broin (B 1826) and her husband, Stephen Weller. They could be John's grandparents? Sarah and Stephen had lots of children.

I believe that John had an affair with a woman while he was with his second wife. They had an illegitimate daughter who was my great grandmother. She was born on December 1888 but I don't know where she was born. I believe she had no birth certificate. Luckily, I have a copy of her baptism record from Woolwich that his father was John Allen and mother was Margaret. She was fostered by James and Mary Rutherford when she was 9 months old.

I think John would be escape (migrated) with his family to Queensland from Buckinghamshire while Margaret was pregnancy. I could not find out more about her.

Hi ArgyllGran,

Thank you for your time.

Yes, you are correct with the census 1881.

Yes, it could be Chesham in Buckinghamshire. Maybe his second wife could be mistaken to write it down.

Yes, I found Leonard Allen's WW1 records from National Archives Australia last year. I was sad to hear about him. I found two photos of him. So that's how i found out JJA's death year.

I agree with you that JJA would have become estranged from his sons, John and Robert. :-(

Thank you for finding John Allen snr in 1861. I have not seen it before. That's interesting that he was unmarried. I will try to find out about him.

I have heaps of Brion families with my father, my brother and my DNA results. We have about 11 DNA matches with Brion and Weller. I think John might relate to Sarah Broin (B 1826) and her husband, Stephen Weller. Maybe they could be JJA's grandparents? Sarah and Stephen had lots of children. It is too difficult to find out how JJA is related to Brion.

Another clue:

Caroline Brion (B 1839) and John James Allen jnr would know each other. I believe they lived together before 1881.

I have a copy of JJA's first marriage to show a full address in 1880. Then I found the full address in 1881 census, and I was very surprised to find it.

Name Caroline Naden (maiden was Brion)
Age 40
Estimated Birth Year abt 1841
Relationship to Head Wife
Spouse George Naden
Gender Female
Where born Eton, Buckinghamshire, England
Civil parish St Clement Danes
County/Island London
Country England
Street Address 84 Drury Lane
Marital Status Married
Registration District Strand

Caroline's parents were George Bryan Brion and Caroline Perryman.

Caroline and her husband took in boarders, so JJA was probably just that - a boarder.

Re John Allen, the butcher, in 1861 -
that was just a suggestion.
There is no way to prove if he was JJA's father or not.

Name Caroline Naden
Sex Female
Age 30
Birth Year (Estimated) 1841
Birthplace Eton Victor, Buckinghamshire
Marital Status Married
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Event Place St Clement Danes, Middlesex, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) St Clement Danes, London, Middlesex, England
Sub-District St Clement Danes
Enumeration District 2
Household Identifier 87
Entry Number 22
Caroline Naden's Spouses and Children

Close All
George Naden Husband M 30 Hornsey, Middlesex
George Naden person details
Name George Naden
Sex Male
Age 30
Birth Year (Estimated) 1841
Birthplace Hornsey, Middlesex
Marital Status Married
Occupation Driver
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Event Place St Clement Danes, Middlesex, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) St Clement Danes, London, Middlesex, England
Sub-District St Clement Danes
Enumeration District 2
Household Identifier 87
Entry Number 21
Other People on This Record

Open All
Emma Brion F 21 Cottom Hall, Buckinghamshire
Frederick Brion M 13 Cottom Hall, Buckinghamshire
James Strench M 35 Bridgnorth,
Henry Cann M 22 Stockbridge, Hampshire

Hi ErikaH, yes, he could be a boarder. But Caroline's maiden was Brion. It can't be coincidence. They could be related, maybe a cousin.

Two of Caroline's children's names, Walter and Alice Maud were same names with JJA's 2 children's names (sadly, they died when they were babies).

Hi Abby, yes, I already have this 1871 census. Thanks. :-)

Regarding the 1888 birth - certs were compulsory by then. What was the child's name?

I can't find a James & Mary Rutherford in 1891 with a very small child..... they may, of course, be mistranscribed