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I think this is a mistake on the 1911 census in Belfast.
What do you think?

On 31/10/1904, Margaret (Maggie) Devers married Robert Newell in Belfast.

Here they are in 1911:

Robert Newell
in the Web: Ireland, Census, 1911
Name Robert Newell
Gender Male
Age 35
Birth Year abt 1876 [abt 1876]
Birth Place Belfast City
Residence Date 2 Apr 1911
House Number 14
Townland/Street Shannon Street
District Clifton
County Antrim
Country Ireland
Electoral District Clifton
Literacy Read and wright
Language Spoken English
Marital Status Married
Number of Children Born 3
Number of Children Living 3
Occupation Engineer
Religion Church of Ireland
Relationship Head
URL
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Robert Newell 35 Head
Maggie Newell 25 Wife
Agnes Newell 6 Daughter
Jennie Newell 3 Daughter
Sarah Newell Daughter [ Age 3 months, on image, not transcribed]


I have the records of the births of daughters Agnes and Jennie/Jeanie , with parents Robert and Margaret, nee Devers.

I can find no record of a daughter Sarah.
However, there is this birth:

Birth record for Samuel Newell
25 December 1910 / Belfast
Name: Samuel Newell
Date of Birth: 25 December 1910
Group Registration ID: 1039849
SR District/Reg Area: Belfast
Sex: Male
Mother's Birth Surname: Devers

Parents: Robert and Margaret, nee Devers, at 27 Shannon Street.

The census image clearly shows Sarah (although the name isn't well written and could be "Saml") listed as a daughter.

Although it seems a strange mistake to make, do you agree with me that somehow Robert has listed his son Samuel as a daughter ??

I think I would want to see the birth certificate.

We all know enumerators can get their notes muddled but I usually feel the 1911 is correct - apart from some marriage years ;-)

There are several trees on A which have Sarah born 1910 marrying to James Ferris Wright

The census definitely shows a daughter (as you say) and it could be Sarah or Saml

However, not one tree has any records pertaining to the birth of Sarah (or Samuel) or indeed, the supposed death of Sarah Wright in 1984. There are lots of full dates and places though so it seems the "master" tree (that everyone else has copied from) has quite some knowledge. And some photos. Seems to be descended from another son William born 1924.

Why don't you message and ask the question?

Jude

Birth cert viewable on irishgenealogy.ie.

It says :

Born: 1910 25th December, 27 Shannon Street.
Name: Samuel [ clearly written ]
Sex: M [clearly written ]
Father: Robert Newell, 27 Shannon Street
Father's occupation: Car driver [ was an engraver at marriage and at Agnes and Jeanie/Jennie's births]
Mother: Margaret Newell, formerly Devers.
Informant: Margaret Newell, mother, 27 Shannon Street [made her mark]

The census record was filled out and signed by Robert Newell - so it's not an enumerator's mistake.

Absolutely no ambiguity on the census record.
The father said he was literate (occupation Engraver) ..................he also said his wife was literate, so she must have learned quickly

The birth cert is also very clear

From Sarah's profile on that master tree...

Birth
25 DEC 1910 • 27 Shannon Street, Belfast..........

None of the trees provide proof of Sarah's birth, so at least one of the "owners" has assumed that the birth cert for Samuel is hers.

None of the trees provide proof of Sarah's marriage, either.
I would like to see the marriage cert for her father's details.

If the mistake is not in 1911, then it must be a bad mistake by the registrar at the child's birth.

I'll try contacting one of the tree owners - without much hope.

Yes ErikaH...saw that.

As ArgyllGran says, there is nothing in the way of sources or records in any of the trees. And if you drill down though them, they have all copied from the one tree (well two actually both owned by the same person). But while there are no records, there is a lot of info in terms of dates and places (and some photos). Possibly (probably???) made up but it's a lot of info to make up.

ArgyllGran, nothing to be lost by contacting the owner. As you say there is no record of a birth for Sarah.....

Jude

Just looking at birth records on the Irish site.....the main tree has four girls and two boys; the one boy, William, being the main ancestor for the tree. Only there is no Newell/Devers birth that corresponds (just like Sarah). So, may be that it should be taken with a large dose of salt!

Jude

Deleted the info regarding JFW born Devon.................there is (allegedly) another one of the name born in Ireland 1907

Name James Ferris Wright
Birth Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Birth Date 1907
Birth Place Banbridge, Ireland
Birth Registration Date Jun 1907
Birth Registration Place Ireland
Volume 1
Page 131
FHL Film Number 101071


Not that it helps, TBH. There is no online record of a marriage for either man

BTW - can't see the above on 1911 census, nor can I see his birth on the Irish Genealogy site

These are the 1907 births in Banbridge for James Wright
Birth of JAMES WRIGHT on 03 March 1907 ? Civil record
Group registration ID: 95189SR District/Reg Area: BanbridgeChild's Sex: MaleMother's Birth Surname: MC KNIGHT
Birth of JAMES WRIGHT on 05 February 1907 ? Civil record
Group registration ID: 95171SR District/Reg Area: BanbridgeChild's Sex: MaleMother's Birth Surname: LOGAN
Birth of JAMES WRIGHT on 07 April 1907 ? Civil record
Group registration ID: 633855SR District/Reg Area: BanbridgeChild's Sex: MaleMother's Birth Surname: NEILL

The one tree claiming a marriage for Sarah gives James Ferris Wright (1913)'s death as being on 18/2/ 1990 - but without proof or location.

Possibly this one, without middle name:

James Wright
in the UK and Ireland, Find a Grave® Index, 1300s-Current
Name James Wright
Birth Date 1913
Death Date 18 Feb 1990
Cemetery Carnmoney Cemetery East
Burial or Cremation Place Newtownabbey, County Antrim, Northern Ireland


I've contacted that tree owner, whose name is Newell, and who's based in Northern Ireland - so hopefully he knows more than he's put on his tree.

Thank you all for your interest.
I'll let you know!

WRIGHT, JAMES F — February 18, 1990. — Deeply regretted . Zy his Niece Anne, Husband yril and Family, England. Peacefully sleeping.
WRIGHT, JAMES F — February 18, 1990. — Deeply regretted by his Niece ...
Published: Tuesday 20 February 1990
Newspaper: Belfast Telegraph
County: Antrim, Northern Ireland

WRIGHT, JAMES — February 18, 1990. — Deeply regretted by Betty, Isaac and David. No last goodbyes, just fond memories.
WRIGHT, JAMES — Deeply regretted by his Friends George and Renee.
Published: Monday 19 February 1990
Newspaper: Belfast Telegraph
County: Antrim, Northern Ireland


Sarah had died 1/1 /1983, according to the tree.

Presumably:

Sarah Wright
in the UK and Ireland, Find a Grave® Index, 1300s-Current
Name Sarah Wright
Birth Date 1911
Death Date 1 Jan 1984
Cemetery Carnmoney Cemetery East
Burial or Cremation Place Newtownabbey, County Antrim, Northern Ireland

The James in the tree was supposedly in the Navy. I just feel there is too much detail without any evidence but normally in that instance you have lots of about 1910 (for example) and not actual dates. Let's hope Mr Newell responds! :-D

The claimed marriage is correct.

On GRONI:

Registration details

Registration number
M/1937/B1/450/5/5
Registration district
Belfast
Place of marriage
St Michaels Church of Ireland
Date of marriage
4th October 1937

Party 1 details

Forename 1 of party 1
James
Surname of party 1
Wright
Gender of party 1
Male
Age at marriage of party 1
25

Party 2 details

Forename 1 of party 2
Sarah
Surname of party 2
Newell
Gender of party 2
Female
Age at marriage of party 2
26


Sarah: Address - 27 Shannon Street. Father: Robert Newell, engraver.
James: 49 Bristol Street, Belfast. In Navy. Father: James Wright, time keeper.

Ah! How weird!

On GRONI, the image of the 25/12/1910 birth cert quite clearly shows the name Sarah, Female.
Everything else is exactly the same as the "Samuel" record.
Same registration number 282, though on the GRONI record it's printed, and on the other one it's hand-written.

Registration details
Registration number
U/1911/49/1007/136/282
Registration district
Belfast(pre-1973 Q4)
Registration sub-district
Belfast Urban 3

Child details
Surname of child
Newell
Forename(s) of child
Sarah
Date of birth
25th December 1910
Sex of child
Female
District of birth
Belfast(pre-1973 Q4)

Mother details
Mother's forename
Margaret Newell
Mother's maiden surname
Devers

Father/2nd female parent details
Robert Newell

Ooer!!!! I did notice that the birth of Agnes stated sex at birth was not defined. And that Samuel was male.....but what if?!!!!!! ????

On GRONI:

Birth of Sarah's brother William, which doesn't appear on irishgenealogy.ie:

U/1925/49/1007/173/76 William Newell 25th December 1924 Male Devers Belfast(pre-1973 Q4)

Just adding odds and sods re men named JFW........in case any of the info proves useful when cross-referencing

Name James Ferris Wright
Birth Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Birth Date 1907
Birth Place Banbridge, Ireland
Birth Registration Date Jun 1907
Birth Registration Place Ireland
Volume 1
Page 131
FHL Film Number 101071


WRIGHT, JAMES FERRIS COOK
GRO Reference: 1912 D Quarter in DEVONPORT Volume 05B Page 474

First name(s) James Ferris
County Devon
Last name Wright
Country England
Birth year 1912
Event type Baptism registers
Birth date 02 Sep 1912
Archive Plymouth & West Devon Record Office
Baptism year 1912
Archive reference 2036/2/b
Baptism date 08 Sep 1912
Page 386
Father's first name(s) James
Record set Devon Baptisms
Mother's first name(s) Mabel Elizabeth
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's last name -
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Denomination Anglican
Collections from England, Great Britain
Place Devonport, St Paul



Name Mr James Ferris Wright
Death Date 28 Jul 1958
Death Place Northern Ireland
Record Date 30 Oct 1958
Record Place Belfast, Northern Ireland
URL https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx


First name(s) James Ferris
Publication year 1972
Last name Wright
Publication date 05 Jun 1972
Sex Male
Page number 2
Death year 1972
Publication city Belfast
Death date 4 Jun 1972
Publication county Antrim
Place Four Winds*****************************Son-in-Law's residence
Publication region Ireland
County Coldagh, Ballymoney
Publication country Ireland
Country Ireland
Record set Irish Newspaper Death & In Memoriam Notices
Spouse's first name(s) Lucinda
Category Newspapers & publications
Spouse's last name Wright
Subcategory Newspaper Death & In Memoriam Notices
Working title News Letter (Belfast, Northern Ireland)
Collections from Ireland, England, Great Britain
Publication title Belfast News-Letter

1921 Census Of England & Wales
25, Cornwall Street, Devonport, Devon, England
Mabel E Wright Head Female 1887 34 Devonport, Devon, England Home Duties -
James F Wright Son Male 1912 8 Devonport, Devon, England - -
Mabel E Wright Daughter Female 1914 6 Devonport, Devon, England - -
Thomas H Wright Son Male 1919 1 Devonport, Devon, England - -

From GRONI..................no births with second forename Ferris between 1906 and 1908
Posting here only those for 1907

Registration number Forename of child Surname of child Date of birth Sex of child Mother's maiden name Registration district

U/1907/37/1006/16/357 James Wright 5th February 1907 Male Logan Banbridge(pre-1973 Q4) Enhanced
Full
Order certificate
U/1907/34/1006/17/382 James Wright 3rd March 1907 Male McKnight Banbridge(pre-1973 Q4) Enhanced
Full
Order certificate
U/1907/32/1006/40/223 James Wright 7th April 1907 Male Neill Banbridge(pre-1973 Q4) Enhanced
Full
Order certificate
U/1907/14/1002/15/51 James Wright 26th June 1907 Male Wright Armagh(pre-1973 Q4) Enhanced
Full
Order certificate
U/1908/56/1007/23/227 James Wright 28th November 1907 Male Gamble Belfast(pre-1973 Q4) Enhanced
Full
Order certificate
U/1907/50/1007/105/247 James Wright 2nd December 1907 Male Belfast(pre-1973 Q4) Enhanced

The 1912 Devonport JFW, with parents James and Mabel Elizabeth, seems likely to be Sarah's husband, whose Findagrave entry I posted yesterday at 16:54.

The Navy connection; the name; the approx age; father's name James - it all fits, as far as one can see.



I only started this thread because of the Sarah/Samuel birth anomaly - but as so often happens, one heads down a rabbit hole!

Sarah is a very distant twig on my late OH's tree - in fact not related at all!
My OH's maternal gr-grandmother was married three times. OH's gr-grandfather was her third husband.
Her second husband was Sarah's uncle Robert Devers.
:-S