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I wonder if anyone can find this man after 1911, please? (Or before, for that matter.)

Fred Brown
in the 1911 England Census
Name Fred Brown
Age in 1911 42
Estimated Birth Year abt 1869 [abt 1869]
Relation to Head Boarder
Gender Male
Birth Place Northamptonshire [Helmdon on image]
Civil parish Winchcombe
County/Island Gloucestershire
Country England
Street Address Gretton Road, Winchcombe, Glos
Marital Status Widowed
Occupation sewerage Ganger
Registration District Number 332
Sub-registration district Guiting
ED, institution, or vessel 11
Piece 15507
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Harry Pearson 34 Head
Mary Annie Pearson 34 Wife
Alfred Ernest Pearson 3 Son
Margaret Evelyn Pearson 1 Daughter
Fred Brown 42 Boarder

I'm interested in him because there's a slender chance that he might be the father of Violet Annie Brown(11/10/1911 Tonyrefair, South Wales) and Charles Frederick Brown (24/4/1916 Winchcombe).

BROWN, VIOLET ANNIE mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1208

BROWN, CHARLES FREDERICK mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1916 J Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 692

Their mother was Violetta Humphris/Humphries/Humphriss 1885, mmn Allen.
She was born 2 years after the 1883 death of her mother Ellen's first husband, and 2 years before her mother married her second husband Richard Williams in 1887.

In 1891 and 1901 she's Letty/Lettie Williams, with her mother and stepfather, in Winchcombe.

She married Arthur Charles Hensley in 1905, and had two children, Sidney Robert Hensley and Helen/Ellen Hensley.
Arthur died in 1910.

In 1911, Violetta Hensley is housekeeper to her widowed stepfather Richard, in Chandos Street in Winchcombe.

Then -

In 1921, she's calling herself Brown, married, and is with her two Hensley children, and also the two Brown children, Violet and Charles.

The Hensley children are "mother living, father dead", which is correct.
The Brown children are "mother living, father nk".

Their birth certs give their father's name as Fred/Frederick Brown, general labourer.

As Violet Annie was born in October 1911, Violetta must have met Fred in Winchcombe, before moving temporarily to Tonyrefair between April and October 1911.

Violet Annie was born at 61 Pretoria Road, Tonyrefair, but a family named Roberts are at that address in 1911 census - Harriet Roberts 1853 and her son Herbert 15.
Harriet (nee Morritt) and her husband Frank were originally from Nottinghamshire and have no connection to Violetta.

Violette Brown
in the 1921 England Census
Name Violette Brown
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Age 37 Years 9 Months
Relation to Head Head
Estimated Birth Year 1883
Birth Place Winchcombe, Gloucestershire, England
Residence Date 1921
Residence Street Address Footbridge, Winchcombe
Residence Place Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Occupation Rag Sorter
Occupation Code 964/8
Employer Evans Adlard & Co Ltd, Paper Manufacturer (Out of Work)
Employer Code 420
Place of Work Pailes St, Winchcombe
Inhabited Y
Parliamentary Division Gloucestershire Pc, Cirencester & Tewkesbury Div.
Registration District Winchcombe
Registration District Number 332
Sub registration district Guiting
Sub Registration District Number 1
Respondent Violetta Brown
Enumeration District Name Winchcombe Rd
Enumeration District 10
Schedule 10
Schedule Type Code E
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Violette Brown 37 Years 9 Months Head
Sidney Robert Hensley 15 Years 6 Months Son
Ellen Hensley 14 Years 5 Months Daughter
Violet Annie Brown 9 Years 8 Months Daughter - Tonyrefair, South Wales
Charles Frederick Brown 5 Years 1 Month Son - Winchcombe


The Fred Brown in Winchcombe in 1911 is living in Gretton Road, which isn't far from Chandos Street, where Violetta lived in 1911.
Also, he's the only Fred Brown in Winchcombe in 1911.

I don't think they ever married - at least I can't see a marriage - and it looks as if they had separated between 1916 and 1921, as she doesn't know if he's alive or dead in 1921.

This is just one of those niggling little mysteries!
Thanks!


ADDED:
Violetta Brown married again in 1931, to Robert Ching. In 1939 they're in Winchcombe, and Violetta died in 1952.

Have you found Fred’s birth? Helmdon would be in the (Towcester) and Brackley district, but I can’t see a birth on freebmd.

Love Browns, almost as much as Jones and Smith ;-)

Yes, Browns are great, aren't they? Davies is another good name.

No, I haven't found Fred definitely anywhere except in 1911.

Probably not the same person as different places of birth, but this one is also in Gretton Rd in 1871.

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Gretton Road, Winchcombe, Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England

Household members (9 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Smith Head
- Male 39 1832 Ag lab Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Ann Smith Wife
- Female 35 1836 Laundress Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Charles Smith Son
- Male 12 1859 Labourer Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
William Jos Smith Son
- Male 10 1861 Labourer Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Anne M Smith Daughter
- Female 8 1863 Scholar Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah J Smith Daughter
- Female 6 1865 Scholar Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Julia A Smith Daughter
- Female 4 1867 Scholar Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
George J R Smith Son
- Male 2 1869 - Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
>>Frederick T Brown Boarder
- Male 2 1869 - Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England

Hmmm - interesting.

There's no record of that one's birth either , though there were multitudes of Fred/Frederick Browns born in and around 1869, all over the country.

Only five Frederick T Browns born 1868-1870 - but none anywhere near either Winchcombe or Helmdon.

The father of Violet and Charles doesn't have a middle name - at least not according to their birth certs - although the mother Violetta was the informant.

I suppose it's possible that she didn't know if he had a middle name or not - though you would think she would, having known him for at least 5 years.

I suppose Fred could have been born with another surname and perhaps took on the surname of a stepfather :-)

Looking at the 1911 Census, I see 'Oxford' has been scribbled through for place born....Helmdon is in West Northamptonshire and has historical border ties with Oxfordshire :-)

Can someone view this to establish if it's the same Violet reverting back to first/only marriage surname?

Name Miss V. Henseley
Topic Other
Residence Date 26 Feb 1926
Residence Place Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Publication Date 26 Feb 1926
Publication Place Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Newspaper Title The Gloucestershire Echo

Any other newspaper archives for Fred Brown (ie convictions)

I've been briefly looking at military records on Fold3 and the closest I've managed so far is:
+ 426202 Fred Brown RAMC with an 1870 DOB. Discharge Date 21 Mar 1919
- 25 Denmark Road, Aylstone Park, Leicester
- Married
Personally, I don't think it's the correct Fred

I've also unsuccessfully tried to find the Brown children as dependents and Violetta/e as a named spouse on Pension/Service records.

This the marriage for Violet in 1933, there is a newspaper article about the wedding

Marriages Sep 1933
Brown Violet A Stanley Winchcomb 6a 1195
Stanley Thomas L Brown Winchcomb 6a 1195

Regarding Londonbelke’s comment about the Ixfirdshire connection. Whilst researching ancestors in the area I came across the comment that that area across the borders was nicknamed Banburyshire.
Made a lot of sense.

The newspaper article about Miss V Henseley doesn't help us, unfortunately.


CIRENCESTER TRADERS’ ASSOCIATION

... and the party went off with every success. The prize takers for whist were : Ladies. 1 Mrs. J. Beesley. 2 Miss V. Henseley. 3 Mrs. Pope; gentlemen. 1 Mrs. O. F. Ingram (playing gentleman). 2 Mrs. (playing gentleman). 3 Mr. W. J Turner. . . . . . . "

Published: Friday 26 February 1926
Newspaper: Gloucestershire Echo
County: Gloucestershire, England

Not sure whether this 1901 Census is of any significance but I'm posting it as you never know :-)

Longdoles Cottages, East End, Fairford, Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England

Frederick Brown Head Married Male 31 1870 Agricultural labourer Oxfordshire, England
Sarah A Brown Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Gloucestershire, England
Frederick Brown Son - Male 4 1897 - Down Ampney, Wiltshire, England
Albert Brown Son - Male 2 1899 - Fairford, Gloucestershire, England
William Brown Son - Male 0 1901 - Fairford, Gloucestershire, England


Edit: Ancestry says place of birth is Great Rissington, Oxfordshire

Just for interest - but no help with Fred -

The newspaper article LondonBelle mentioned about young Violet Annie's marriage in 1933:


WINCHCOMBE BRIDE
Miss V. H. Brown Marries Mr. T. L. Stanley
The wedding took place yesterday the Congregational Church, Winchcombe, of Miss Violet Annie Brown, youngest daughter of Mrs. Ching and step-daughter of Mr. R. Ching. of Hailes-street, Winchcombe, and Mr. Thomas Leslie Stanley, second son of Mr. and Mrs. L. Stanley, late of the Bridge Inn, Offenham ...

[and descriptions of bridesmaids' dresses, etc.]

Published: Thursday 03 August 1933
Newspaper: Gloucestershire Echo
County: Gloucestershire, England

Great Rissington is in Gloucestershire but the Enumerator has put Oxon, Great Rissington although it is only 1.5 from the County Line

GENUKI Great Rissngton has a link to transcribed marriages - there is a marriage Of John Brown to elizabeth Brown

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/GreatRissington/GR-MAR3

Re the 1901 posted by LB:

In 1911, the sons Frederick and Albert are with their aunt Amy Brown at Great Barrington, Burford.
The son William, and their mother Sarah, are in the Union Workhouse, Maugersbury, Stow on the Wold, Glos.

1915: the son Frederick joined the Gloucestershire Regiment, naming his aunt Amy as NOK.
He was killed in 1917.

Going back through the censuses, in 1881 Amy is in Great Rissington with parents John and Elizabeth, and several siblings including Frederick , aged 12.

1891: Frederick's lodging in Eastleach Turville, Gloucestershire, and is a farm labourer.
1893: he married Sarah Ann Smith in Eastleach Martin, Glos. - he's a labourer.

I don't see him in 1911 or 1921.

1939: he died in Great Rissington.

I don't see Sarah or son William after 1911.

Clearly, the family broke up at some point between 1901 and 1911.


However, none of that links up definitely with Fred (said to be widowed) in Winchcombe in 1911!

I see there is another Brown family in Winchcomb. could they be related to Fred hence the reason why he went there :-)

Cowl Lane Winchcombe, Winchcombe, Gloucestershire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Albert Brown Head
Married Male 53 1858 Painter house Winchcombe Glos
Margaret E Brown Wife
Married Female 38 1873 - Winchcombe Glos
Emily Brown Daughter
- Female 9 1902 - Winchcombe Glos
Maud Brown Daughter
- Female 7 1904 - Winchcombe Glos
Violetta Brown Daughter
- Female 5 1906 - Winchcombe Glos
Mabel Annie Brown Daughter
- Female 3 1908 - Winchcombe Glos
Kate Brown Daughter
- Female 1 1910 - Winchcombe Glos

Do you have any births certs for the children

BROWN, VIOLET ANNIE mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1208

BROWN, CHARLES FREDERICK mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1916 J Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 692

Yes, I have those, thanks. Details are in opening post.

Violet Annie born 11/10/1911 at 61 Pretoria Road, Tonyrefair, LLantrisaint.
Father: Frederick Brown, general labourer.
Mother (and informant): Violetta Brown, late Hensley, formerly Williams.
Mother's address: 61 Pretoria Road.

Charles Frederick born 24/4/1916 at Footbridge, Winchcombe.
Father: Fred Brown, general labourer.
Mother (and informant): Violetta Brown, formerly Williams.
Mother's address: Footbridge, Winchcombe.


Thanks for suggesting the Albert Brown family in 1911, LB.
I can't see any link to Fred - but who knows!

I don't think this is a mystery we can solve.
There are far too many Fred/Frederick Browns, and the supposed birth in Helmdon of the man in Winchcombe in 1911 leads nowhere.

In any case, there's no way of proving if he was the children's father or not.

Many thanks to everyone for suggestions and interest shown.

Having said that . . . . . (just for interest, and no help with Violet and Charles's father) -

Returning to the 1871 census posted (24 May @ 20:00) by Alviegal for George Smith and family:

the boarder Frederick T Brown is the illegitimate son of some relation of Ann Smith, whose maiden surname was Bourne - possibly Ann's sister Eliza (1850):

BOURNE, FREDERICK THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 365

I don't see him in later records. Perhaps someone adopted him.


Marriages Dec 1858 (>99%)
Bourne Anne Winchcomb 6a 759
Smith George Winchcomb 6a 759

I suppose it's possible that the enumerator in 1871 misheard "Bourne" and wrote "Brown".

In 1881, Eliza Bourne is housekeeper to Cornelius Kendrick and his parents in London, and she married him in 1891, after the deaths of his parents.
Sadly, Cornelius died in 1892.
I don't see Eliza definitively after that.