Genealogy Chat

Has this one been mentioned?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Edward Pattinson
Name: Edward Pattinson
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Whitehaven
County: Cumbria, Cumberland
Volume: 10b
Page: 602 (click to see others on page)

But I guess it isn't him, as there is a likely family for him in 1891.

There is an Edw A Pattison travelling London-Freemantle on 9/11/1911, but he's travelling with a Mrs Pattison, married, and presumably a brother E.W Pattinson.

If this is an important person in your tree, I would still investigate the mystery Albert Murphy b Mar 1888 Carlisle, cos he appears on no census in 1891, 1901 or 1911, nor is there a death for him. Even more interesting is that there are no Murphys in Carlisle in 1891. There are Murphys over the border, but no Alberts.

There is a Bert Murphy travelling from Liverpool to Sydney in 1908. No age, but single, and a blacksmith. Was your Albert a blacksmith? Was he known as Bert?

I'd still say there is nothing to doubt that he was Hannah's son. He went to NZ to follow Annie cos both his parents were dead, and he had a friendly family face to join there.

Thanks Potty, yes I do have John's birth certificate and no time on it! I think Albert must always remain a mystery - even his own son was in doubt as to the parentage and figured it was probably Annie. The fact that Albert came to NZ to join Annie after old Hannah died possibly reinforces that. Still strange that his birth wasn't registered, unless as others have suggested, it was under a different name. That doesn't quite seem right to me though. Oh well!

Janet

Do you have the birth cert for the John you think might possibly be Albert's twin? If he was a twin, the cert would have time of birth on it. If it does, try contacting the relevant register office and ask them to check who the twin was. I have known in the past for only one of twins to be in the GRO index.

Just to add, I do have a family in my own tree where the parents insisted on recording a child as their own on censuses - and she was the grandchild. So I am not dismissing that as a possibility here. But in that case I had other evidence that she was not the granchild.

In the absence of a lot of information that you say you don't want repeating, I am hard pushed to imagine why you suspect that Albert was not the son of Hannah.

He was born in 1888. In 1891 you have him as the son of Hannah, and in 1901 I assume he is the lad in Bury with his sister Ellen - is that right?

So what makes you think he is not Hannah's son?

If Dan was dead, then his father was simply someone else. After all, Hannah was only 39 when he was born, and presumably young enough to have a second lover after Dan died.

Nicky found five possible births around the right time in Carlisle, and asked if any of the names meant anything to you. You haven't responded to that.

Here they are again with my comments:

MCAVOY Albert Carlisle Dec 1887 10b 467 - Not found in 1891, Died Dec 1887.

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Births Mar 1888 (>99%)
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ELLISON Albert Ernest Carlisle 10b 471 - Found in 1891 with parents.
MURPHY Albert Carlisle 10b 459 - Not found in 1891
PEARSON Albert Carlisle 10b 453 - Not found in 1891, died Mar 1888.
ZELLER Albert George Carlisle 10b 475 - Not found in 1891, died Jun 1889

So that leaves just Albert Murphy unaccounted for.

Hmm. So who is Albert Murphy?

Given that information, I personally would want to be able to eliminate Albert Murphy from my list of possibles - if indeed, I had any other list of possibles.

But perhaps you have already eliminated him, and don't need the suggestion?

Quite agree Sylvia - my grandmother always thought her birthday was 30 June until she applied for her birth certificate when she was in her 60s or 70s and found it was the 29th June! Turns out I have discovered her half brother (John Key) was 30 June a few years earlier. I'm starting to think seriously about the twin issue as far as Albert and John are concerned. Wish I could get a baptism...

Janet

Meg



it had crossed my mind, not sure why .... it was late last night when I saw it!





well, it really does seem to me that this is an unsolvable problem



all participants in the mystery are dead


IF Hannah was pretending to be his mother, then it is quite on the cards that she registered him under her name ........... not unknown for that to happen



I think the only possibility of solving anything would be, quite honestly, to find a little peice of paper tucked in to a family bible or other "family" book.



Plus of course the fact that we are relying on "hearsay" for so much, including his date of birth


"Hearsay" from my very own grandfather said that he was born on December 25 1884 or, sometimes he said, 1885

WRONG!

........... the day after his death his son discovered the birth certificate ...... January 9 1885


I could have spent months if not years looking for the registration!




sylvia

Yes Nicky, that is the same one, thanks. I also have Ellen in the previous census living with her sister Annie in Skipton. Her daughter (Hannah Key, my grandmother) was living in Whitehaven in 1901 with her godmother. Ellen obviously wasn't a very good mother! I have Albert in 1891 living with Hannah Pattinson as her 3 year old son. I still think she was really his grandmother!

Madmeg - please do not spend anymore time floundering! Thank you for your help.

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate the help you are giving, but to be honest, you are doubling up on what I have. I will give a quck precis: Hannah and Dan Pattinson were married around 1870. They had Ellen (b. 1871) and Annie (b.1873). Ellen married James Key in 1887 in Leeds and John was born the same year in Thirsk (30.6.87). I have ongoing information about John and James and am not interested in going any further. Ellen left James and John and went back to Whitehaven. She gave birth to my grandmother, Hannah in 1892. That is a different story and I have researched that. Annie married in UK and came to NZ in the 1890s, I have that information,b ut it is not totally relevant at this stage. I have wondered over the years if it was possible that Ellen gave birth to twins, John and Albert and only registered John? Albert was brought up as the son of Hannah and Dan, but Dan was dead well before Albert was born! As noted, Albert's birth date could have been "made up", it was only a few months after John's. Food for thought? Thank you all again, but please don't go into too much history of this family. Is it possible to search baptism records?

Oh, Sylvia, were you thinking he was Pattinson? I did see it and wondered.

...... and what about that EDWARD ALLINSON whose birth registration I found registered in Whitehaven, and posted at about 1:00 am UK time this morning??



Have you completely discounted that one??????????


You never made any mention of taking notice of it.



sylvia

Think this may be Annie with her father in 1881...so she wasn`t in New Zealand then...

PATTINSON, Dan Head Married M 30 1851 Chemist & Druggist
Dearham
Cumberland VIEW
PATTINSON, Annie Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Whaven
Cumberland VIEW

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RG number:
RG11 Piece:
5185 Folio:
8 Page:
10

Registration District:
Whitehaven Sub District:
Whitehaven Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Whitehaven Municipal Borough:
Address:
38, Irish Street, Whitehaven County:
Cumberland

Dan and Hannahs marriage???

Marriages Mar 1871 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coulthard Mary Whitehaven 10b 695
Martin Hannah Whitehaven 10b 695
Pattinson Dan Whitehaven 10b 695
Routledge William Whitehaven 10b 695



Nicky

Hannahs death in 1901.....

Deaths Mar 1901 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pattinson Hannah 51 Whitehaven 10b 425



Nicky

And therefore:

1881 England Census
about Hannah Pattinson
Name: Hannah Pattinson
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Harrington, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Workington
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England

Street Address: 62 Derwent St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Workington
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Clements 28
Mary A. Clements 24
Margaret Clements 4
Fanny Clements
Emma Allinson 15
Hannah Pattinson 32 Visitor, Mar
Ellen Pattinson 9 (I would guess daughter)

Janet could you please give us all the information you have on Albert. especially if you have his arrival in New Zealand......I would be dubious about exact date of birth coming from his son, people often don`t know the exact date of birth of their parents and can sometimes be out by quite a bit.


Nicky

is that Albert in Bury Lancs in 1901 with Ellen.?

While I appreciate that you have all the information on these other relatives and are only looking for Albert, it would really help us helpers to know what you know so as we can see if you`ve missed something. Could you give us Annies arrival details in New Zealand please.

Right got him in 1891..with "mother Hannah" in Whitehaven Cumbria..

PATTISON, Hannah Head Widow F 42 1849 Lodging House Keeper
Harrington
Cumberland VIEW
PATTISON, Albert E Son M 3 1888
Carlisle
Cumberland VIEW
STUDHOLM, Ann Mother Married F 59 1832
Harrington
Cumberland VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG12 Piece:
4313 Folio:
69 Page:
13

Registration District:
Whitehaven Sub District:
Whitehaven Enumeration District:
4 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Bees

Civil Parish:
Whitehaven Municipal Borough:
Address:
7, Coates Lane, Whitehaven County:
Cumberland

Nicky

I am now spending a lot of time floundering in the dark for the Key family, and for Annie, Ellen and Hannah Pattinson.

Janet, please give us full information on them. Otherwise we (a) can't really help and (b) spend a lot of time trying to.

I got Albert's date of birth from his now deceased son and it is on his army records. I also have his marriage certificate. His son also had the details of the ship and date he supposedly came to NZ, but I haven't been able to tie in the dates. All a bit of a mystery! Thank you all for your help.

Janet

Right I`m getting confused now.....

Is this Albert and his sister Ellen in 1901? If so they are in Bury Lancs. not Whitehaven Cumberland, unfortunatly i can`t look at the image as its not bringing up the correct page when I go to look at the image.

TOGWELL, Henry Head Married M 32 1869 Electricity Mains Fman
Woolwich
London VIEW
TOGWELL, Adelaide Daughter Single F 5 1896
Plumstead
London VIEW
KAY, Ellen Servant Married F 30 1871 Housekeeper (Dom)
Parton
Cumberland VIEW
PATTISON, Albert Visitor Single M 13 1888 Scholar
Carlisle
Cumberland VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
3640 Folio:
15 Page:
21

Registration District:
Bury Sub District:
North Bury Enumeration District:
16 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Paul

Civil Parish:
Bury Municipal Borough:
Address:
7, Bell Lane Chesham Crescent, Bury County:
Lancashire

And can anyone else find him please in 1891 as I`m at a loss.....


Nicky