Genealogy Chat

M....you DID explain it..it isnt your fault that I couldnt follow! Takes a while for things to sink in..I have to do things over and over.
However,I am going to print out your information,so I have it there for future reference.
You have been so kind,mgnv,especially explaining it for a second time...thankyou so much.
Maybe someone else,just starting their journey of genealogy,will find this helpful too.
Elaine :-)

To explain to everyone what Elaine's on abt, I sent her a long list of (mostly Whitfield) census refs. I've just posted a similar list I was working on for the Parrs.

So Elaine's "BUT..." is her saying she didn't know how to use them, and I didn't really explain it well.

Looking at the last one for Amelia, the 1891.
On Ancestry, you have to do a search in the 1891 England census - if you "Show Advanced Search Options" then boxes appear for you to enter the piece/folio/page #s, so you do this and out pop the names - just the Parrs if I've got Parr in the surname box, or all the names on the page if the rest (i.e., non-census ref bits) are blank.

That's basically all there is to it, but I find it's easier to navigate between the difft years if you use the old-style search.
From Ancestry's main banner bar, select: Search - Search All Records
Just under the main banner bar, at the extreme right you get the option to "Go to Old Search" (unless you're already in the old style search mode, when you'll get the option to "Go to New Search"). So click on "Go to Old Search".
Now back to the main banner bar, and select: Search - Census and Electoral Rolls. Under the search box, there's a scrollable list headed:
Search Individual Census Records:
You can check/uncheck the "Include databases originating outside the UK" just underneath the header whatever makes sense to you, then select the 1891 England Census from the list. This takes you to that census, which has its own search box - make sure you "Show Advanced Search Options" and also that you check the "Exact matches only" box. Enter Parr, and the 1891 census ref, and do that search. (There's 3 hits: Amelia & her nephews) so get your transcriptions and images and come back to this 3 hit page - there's a thingy under the hits box that lets you set "Results per page" - pick 50 (the max). Just above the hits box, again at the left, there's a link to "All Census & Electoral Rolls Results" - click on it and it lists all the censuses with Parr hits, and the hit count - it ignores all search criteria but the name for this, but since we know we have Parrs on all the other censuses, we can just click on the census we want, enter the refs, etc.

NB in 1911, the seq # doesn't work, so there you need a name (e.g., Whitfield) and the piece # to get a hit from the list I sent.

The 1881 census refs are inside the FS links I gave.

Henry & Amelia
1841 Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:516 Book:9 Folio:30 Page:11
[Amelia working as an F.S. in Knowles h/h on Fleet Lane]
1851 see thread
1861 Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2753 Folio:35 Page:64
[On Fleet Lane with niece Catherine Yanny/Gunny/Young? a=10 pob=St Helens, sharing house with Wm a=37 & Ellen a=37 + Mary a=5, Ann a=3, Henry a=1, & stepson James Greenuagh? a=18 pob= Parr for all - NB Young is most likely given their marr witnesses - Elaine's post on Parr marrs suggests Greenall, but it's not exactly that]
1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KD6X-HZB
Head Henry Parr M 54 Parr, Lancashire
Wife Amelia Parr F 48 Parr, Lancashire
Niece Kate Young F 20 St Helens, Lancashire
Great Nephew Robert Young M 0 Parr, Lancashire
Archive Reference:RG10 Piece Number:3866 Folio:51 Page:16
[next door]
Head John Parr M 46 Parr, Lancashire
Wife Margt Parr F 43 Havannah, Lancashire
Son John Parr M 17 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Daughter Ann Parr F 15 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Son Henry Parr M 12 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Daughter Betty Parr F 10 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Son Wm Parr M 3 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Son Richd S Parr M 0[9m] Fleet Lane, Lancashire
[NB Births Sep 1870 (>99%)
PARR Richard Shaw Prescott 8b 621 ]
[next door other side]
Head James Smith M 44 Burtonwood, Lancashire
Wife Mary Smith F 44 Parr, Lancashire
Son Edwd Smith M 17 Parr, Lancashire
Daughter Amelia Smith F 13 Parr, Lancashire
Son Daniel Smith M 10 Parr, Lancashire
Son James Smith M 7 Parr, Lancashire
Son Jacob Smith M 1 Parr, Lancashire
1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQXM-GRP
1891 Archive Reference:RG12 Piece Number:3024 Folio:118 Page:7
[Amelia a=68 widow pob=Parr;Nephews Edward Parr a=18 pob=Manchester, Thomas Parr a=16 pob=Parr]

John & Margt Parr
1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQXM-PPV

M...i have these noted down too,and did notice,as i was going thro neighbours etc,how various surnames kept cropping up!
Seems as if there was a lot of people married within a small area,and many lived locally most of their lives.

I may sound v foolish now,but here goes!
I am very very grateful for all the information you have found me,and also where you back up my findings...BUT,(!) I have read everything you sent,time and time again,but I still do not have a clue what all the numbers,and folios are.Sorry.

Do I HAVE to know what they mean? Is that why I cant get any further than the 1851 census,for the Parrs? Am I doing something wrong?

Elaine

1841 Fleet Lane, Parr
ho107/516/9/28/7
James Atherton abt 1806 Farmer
Ann Atherton abt 1806
William Atherton abt 1828
Thomas Atherton abt 1830
Margaret Atherton abt 1833
James Atherton abt 1835
Samuel Atherton abt 1837
George Atherton abt 1839
--------
Margaret Swift abt 1776 F.S. [image says surname=Twiss]

ho107/516/9/29/8
William Parr abt 1801 Coal Miner
James Parr abt 1796 Coal Miner
James Parr abt 1831
--------
Alice Taylor abt 1816 F.S.

ho107/516/9/29/8-9 [Ancestry stuff up and say ho107/516/9/30/9 instead of ho107/516/9/29/9]
John Parr abt 1796 Coal Miner
Elizabeth Parr abt 1796
Henry Parr abt 1817 Coal Miner
William Parr abt 1824 Coal Miner
John Parr abt 1826 Coal Miner
Margaret Parr abt 1828
Elizabeth Parr abt 1830
Mary Parr abt 1834

ho107/516/9/29/9 --> 30/10 [Ancestry stuff up - have folio/page=30/9-->29/10]
Thomas Litter abt 1801 Coal Miner
Alice Litter abt 1806
Joseph Litter abt 1823 Coal Miner
Betty Litter abt 1826
Thomas Litter abt 1833
Martha Litter abt 1836
N K [Litter] abt 1841 [1week]
---------
Mary Whitfield abt 1821 F.S.

ho107/516/9/30/10-11 [Ancestry stuff up - have folio/page=29/10-->30/11]
Joseph Knowles abt 1806 Coal Miner
Martha Knowles abt 1806
John Knowles abt 1826 Coal Miner
Thomas Knowles abt 1826 Coal Miner [future spouse of Eliz W]
James Knowles abt 1831
Joseph Knowler abt 1837 [Ancestry transcription gone demented here - the surname is dittoed]
Ralph Knowler abt 1839 [same deal]
--------
Amelia Smith abt 1826 F.S.


Now moved on to Parr Flats Lane
ho107/516/9/32/15
John Greenough abt 1796 Coal Miner
Elizabeth Greenough abt 1796
Margaret Greenough abt 1822 F.S.
Ellen Greenough abt 1826
William Greenough abt 1828
James Greenough abt 1835

[next door]
ho107/516/9/32/15 [surname on image is clearly Twiss]
Henry Swift abt 1806 Coal Miner
Martha Swift abt 1811
Samuel Swift abt 1826 Coal Miner
Margaret Swift abt 1833
Betsy Swift abt 1836
Hugh Swift abt 1839

ED ends on opposite page ho107/516/9/33/16
The enumerator seems to always put the servants into a seperate h/h

LOL...was talking to one of my grandchildren the other day,and was showing her the family tree...she asked if there was a possibility of me being related to Henry VIII's wife,Catherine Parr?!

Trying not to laugh,I told her I didnt think she would come from a line of miners,from Lancashire!

Had a good laugh later though! Kids!

My grandma was Gertrude Whitfield...
my gt g/parents were Thomas Whitfield(b.Atherton)& Annie Birchall(b.Staffordshire)..
my gt gt g/parents were John Whitfield and Margaret Parr...
my gt gt gt g/parents were Peter Whitfield and Ellen(Dumbell?)

on the Parrs..
gt gt gt g/parents were John Parr and Betty Twiss(Twist?)

thats as far as I've got,M.....can you please tell me how you are finding Parrs on Censuses?
I been on Census on A******y...no probs at all with the Whitfields,but finding Parrs is a nightmare! And finding their births is as bad! lol

Trouble is,they all marry women with same christian names,and they all call their kids the same names!

Elaine

Well, I'm confident these Parrs are your g grandad's grandparents (or was Thos gg grandad - I know you said, but I can't spot it and it doesn't really matter here). John and Betty couldn't even sign their names on their marr, so they wouldn't be filling in any census forms - the enumerator (or maybe one of their kids) would have to do that for them. If John said he was 49 in 1841, the enumerator was supposed to round that down to a mult of 5 (in fact all adult i.e., 15+ ages were supposed to be rounded down) - so to go from 49 to 60 in nearly 10 y is not too bad. Since Henry & Amelia are with them in 1851, I'm confident abt that marr too.

An interesting aside - I was quite amazed at how much formal education could take place in Sunday schools, so illiteracy in 1816 wouldn't necessarily be permanent. I was researching for another thread, specifically:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1322366
when I came across the following:
"It was also during Mr Hales's pastorate that or first
Sunday School (in conjunction with Westgate Chapel)
was formed, viz., in the year 1810, but judging from the
items of expenditure religious teaching did not take up
much time, as we find that a good deal of the money was
expended on alphabets, primers, slates, pencils, writing
books, and ink, and that not only children but grown up
men and women were instructed in elementary subjects.
In 1812 there were 250 persons "receiving instruction,"
..." [page 20]
http://www.urcyorkshire.org.uk/images/1924_church_history_1.pdf
http://www.urcyorkshire.org.uk/images/1924_church_history_2.pdf
Actually, this caused a bit of a rift in the congregation, some members feeling that not enough religious instruction was going on, and others feeling they should help the congregation in the best way they could.

Looks like the Thomas who was 4 in 1851 Census,was the illigitimate son of Elizabeth Parr and Peter WHITFIELD!
But she went on to marry(as I wondered on post above) George Swift,who brought up Thomas as his stepson.

Baptism: 23 May 1847 St Michael, Burtonwood, Lancashire, England
Thomas Parr - [Child] of Peter Whitfield & Elizabeth Parr, Spinster
Abode: Burtonwood
Occupation: File Cutter
Notes: Illegitimate
Baptised by: W. G. Thomas
Register: Baptisms 1842 - 1865 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 49, Entry 390
Source: LDS Film 1469048

WHERE did you find that?! I couldnt find any sign of the Parrs,with parents,after 1841. The Whitfields,however,followed right thro,from 1841,right up to 1911.
That's the marriage I have down for Henry!
Father John changed his age again..he was 45 ten years previous!

Wonder if marriage of John and Betty should have had her down as Twist,and not Twiss? That would make sense,cos the visitor,Mary,could have been a grand-daughter?...edit.maybe her brothers grand-daughter,or Bettys niece?

In 1841 census,when John & Betty lived Fleet Lane.,Parr,their neighbours were William Parr.,b.c1801,coal miner.,James Parr.,b.c1796,coal miner.,James Parr.,b.c1831 and(can't make out if she belongs here or not!)Alice Taylor.,b.c1816.f.s(?)....James the younger,son of ?

Going by birth years,William and James looking likely to be Johns' brothers.
If or when I find Johns baptism,then I can check for the same parents.

The children I have for John & Elizabeth(Betty) are:-
Henry.,bapt 1st Dec.1816
William.,bapt 27th Dec 1818......buried 24th May 1822,age 3 yrs
Esther.,bapt 7th Oct 1821.....buried 14th Aug 1822,age 11 months
William.,bapt 31st Aug 1823
John.,bapt 17th Jul 1825
Margaret.,bapt 9th Dec 1827
Elizabeth.,bapt 29th Nov 1829
Thomas.,bapt 23rd Oct 1831
Mary.,bapt 6th Aug 1833.....buried 9th Apr 1843,age 9 yrs
Anne.,bapt 15th Jul 1838

Marriages I found,but not 100% yet:-
Henry to Amelia Smith,1st Jun 1846
William to Ellen Greenall,11th Nov 1849
John to Margaret Shaw,18th Dec 1853
Elizabeth to George Swift,31st May 1857
Ann to Henry Martin,24th Nov 1879(not certain bout this one,cos she would have been 41,but their witnesses were Henry Parr and Betty Parr)

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these...I won't put them on my tree till I'm certain.
There seems to be a recurring theme...Parrs were a mining family.,Whitfields were railway workers.

1861,here I come! Lol

1851 England Census Transcription
Street:BROAD LANE
Parish:BURTONWOOD
City:
County:Lancashire
Division Of County:SOUTHERN DIVISION COUNTY OF LANCASTER
Ecclesiastical District:
Hamlet:
House Name:
House Number:
Parliamentary Borough:
Municipal Ward:
Registration District:WARRINGTON
Enumeration District:1A
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2202 Folio:261 Page:15

JOHN PARR 1791 60 Parr, Lancs HEAD M Coal Miner
BETTY PARR 1795 56 Parr, Lancs WIFE M
HENRY PARR 1816 35 Parr, Lancs SON M Coal Miner
JOHN PARR 1825 26 Parr, Lancs SON U Coal Miner
ELIZABETH PARR 1830 21 Parr, Lancs DAUGHTER U Housekeeper
AMELIA PARR 1825 26 Parr, Lancs DAUGHTER M
MARY TWIST 1841 10 Parr, Lancs VISITOR
THOMAS PARR 1847 4 Burtonwood, Lancs SON Scholar
JAMES PARR 1794 57 Parr, Lancs BROTHER W Coal Miner
[It does say Twist - I read Thos's age as 11]

[Next h/h but one]
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2202 Folio:261 Page:15 -> Folio:262 Page:16
ELLEN WHITFIELD 1785 66 Sankey, Lancs HEAD W Farmer of 21 acres of land
PETER WHITFIELD 1822 29 Burtonwood, Lancs SON U Rail Lab
JANE WHITFIELD 1818 33 Burtonwood, Lancs DAUGHTER U Farmer's Daur employed at home
MARGARET WHITFIELD 1821 30 Burtonwood, Lancs DAUGHTER U Farmer's Daur employed at home
PETER WHITFIELD 1850 1 Burtonwood, Lancs GRANDSON Scholar
[I read wee Peter's age as 10]

EDIT
Marriage: 15 Jun 1846 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Henry Parr - (X), Full Collier Bachelor of Parr
Amelia Smith - (X), Full Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: John Parr, Collier
Bride's Father: Edward Smith, Blacksmith
Witness: James Young; Margaret Young, (X)
Married by Banns by: J. Crump
Register: Marriages 1845 - 1854, Page 16, Entry 31
Source: LDS Film 1657597

Hold yer horses M ! I'm not that flipping clever! Lol
When I have tried to put things in folders(pics etc),they always go walkabout on me!
Think I'll have to stay with the longhand!
But there's something comforting,and normal,holding a piece of paper in your hand and reading from it! Lol
I have a similar system to you,but mines not on comp....I have a folder for each line.,eg..Parr.,Whitfield.,Evans.,etc.
Am going over everything at the minute,to see did John & Elizabeth Parr die after 1841 census and before 1851 census,cos I can't find em?
Have found deaths and marriages for their children,but think maybe Margaret b.c1828 and Elizabeth b.c1830,might still be home with parents if they still alive in 1851 !

Re William Whitfield,wife and children,for some reason,there is HEAD against Margaret,his mother, and also HEAD against him! So the relationship is between the wife,children and 2nd head,William...does that make sense?

Well,I can't sleep,AGAIN,so I am now going back to the elusive John Parr...STILL looking a birth for him yet,too.

Btw..re your post on 29th Apr,for the ?double wedding?....I found a marriage 18th.Dec.1853.,St.Mary the Virgin.,Prescot....John Parr.,full age.,bachelor.,collier.,Parr TO Margaret Shaw.,spinster.,Parr.
Fathers> John Parr.,collier and Richard Shaw.,collier
Looks like one of my Whitfields and one of my Parrs may have married a brother and sister(Shaws)!

Elaine - in future, I'ld recommend that you don't make hand-written notes, but instead, make a copy of the transcription as you save the image.

So start by getting a file to save the image in. Go to the start button - All programs - Accessories - then double-click on Notepad.
Notepad is a (rather elementary) word processor - there are alternatives. Actually, I use notepad often enough that instead of double-clicking on it, I right-clicked and created a shortcut.
This appears in the Accessories folder as Notepad(2) - so I then right-click on that, select Cut, then right click on my desktop and select paste - I then drag the icon to a suitable place, click on the title "Notepad(2)", click again, and rename the title as just "Notepad". In future, I can double-click on the desktop icon to open a new Notepad file.
After I've finished pasting stuff into the file, I'll save it as Whitfield.txt or whatever - I've got a file for each grandparent for self and spouse, and one file for all the more recent stuff (starting at each grandparents marr).

Anyways, turning to the transcription, say it's for g grandad Thos in 1881:

1881 England Census about Thomas Whitfield
Name: Thomas Whitfield
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Margaret Whitfield
Gender: Male
Where born: Atherton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Atherton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Meal House Lane
Education:

Employment status:

Subscribe now to see this information.
Occupation: Store Keeper (Fact Lab)
Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3809
Folio: 10
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Margaret Whitfield 52
Margaret Whitfield 19
Thomas Whitfield 16
Sarah E. Whitfield 11

So I copy and paste the transcription into the file.
It's fine for now, but say a month later, I'm focused on his mum, or a sib - I should put everyone's details there. So I click on the
Neighbors: View others on page
link and I see another mob of Whitfields (when I look at the image, I see they're in the same h/h, so I'll add them now:

William Whitfield 23
Winifred Whitfield 25
Margaret Emily Whitfield 4
Mary Ellen Whitfield 1

There is some confusion here - Wm is described as son, but his wife and daurs are described as such rather than daur-in-law and granddaurs, which is their relation to the head of the h/h.
Anyways, now I've got everyone on the page, this summary shows the pob and relation to head of h/h. I copy and paste thes onto my transcription.
Strictly speaking, they're not in the census form order, but it's so much easier to copy the two cols as is.
Next, I look at the image itself, and add the stuff that's not transcribed. Normally on Ancestry, this is marital status, occup, disability, and street address, so I add these. Also ages of kids under 1 y o are usually blank, so I add those.
Next, I check the image against the transcription, and if I disagree with Ancestry, I add my version in []'s
Finally I remove redundant stuff from the transcription, and maybe reformat it to get:


1881 England Census
Civil parish: Atherton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Meal House Lane
Occupation: Store Keeper (Fact Lab)
Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Piece: 3809 Folio: 10 Page Number: 13

Margaret Whitfield 52 Parr St Helens, Lancashire, England Head
Margaret Whitfield 19 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter
Thomas Whitfield 16 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son
Sarah E. Whitfield 11 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter
William Whitfield 23 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son (Head)
Winifred Whitfield 25 Atherton, Lancashire, England Wife
Margaret Emily Whitfield 4 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter
Mary Ellen Whitfield 1 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter

=====================

Here's an FMP 1911 transcription I got when England played in the World Cup (so it's my folks, not Whitfields):

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

MCCANN, Thomas Head Married M 58 1853 Collier Coal Miner Hewer Wigan Lancashire VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Wife Married
36 years F 55 1856 Nurse Wigan Lancs VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Daughter Single F 24 1887 Cotton Mill Hand Cotton Spinner Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Alice Daughter Married
14 years F 35 1876 Seamstress Sewing Machinist Babylinen Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Ellen Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Annie Daughter Single F 9 1902 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Robert Son Single M 7 1904 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
22979 Reference:
RG14PN22979 RG78PN1345 RD458 SD3 ED7 SN213

Registration District:
Wigan Sub District:
Wigan Enumeration District:
7 Parish:
Wigan

Address:
7 Westmoreland Street Whelley Wigan County:
Lancashire


Mostly, I just reformat here - just need to add # births/living

MCCANN, Thomas Head Married M 58 1853 Collier Coal Miner Hewer Wigan Lancashire VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Wife Married F 55 1856 Nurse Wigan Lancs VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Daughter Single F 24 1887 Cotton Mill Hand Cotton Spinner Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Alice Daughter Married F 35 1876 Seamstress Sewing Machinist Babylinen Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Ellen Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Annie Daughter Single F 9 1902 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Robert Son Single M 7 1904 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
[Margt: marr 36y; 8 live births; 6 still living. Alice: marr 14y; 7 live births; 3 still living]
Registration District:Wigan
Sub District:Wigan
Enumeration District:7
Parish:Wigan
Address:7 Westmoreland Street Whelley Wigan
County:Lancashire
Reference: RG14PN22979 RG78PN1345 RD458 SD3 ED7 SN213

thnx M...LancsA. put me right! lol

I,ve just been copying out,longhand,the Whitfields i all the UK censuses from 1841 to 1911,and I now believe that the baptism I have for John,b.c1811 is correct,cos nearly all the Whitfields ages vary from census to census!!

Clarification - I use h/h as an abbrev for household (and pob for place of birth).

I also found the Shaws...
1891 UK Census..137,Broad Lane.,B/wood

head..Peter Whitfield(68)..b.B/wood
sister..Margaret Whitfield(70)
br in law..William Shaw(66)..b.Parr.,St Helens...coal miner
sister..Ellen Shaw(65)..b.B/wood
nephew..Piers Shaw(28)..b.Parr.,St Helens...labourer
nephew ..Thos Shaw(26)..b.Parr.,St Helens...engine fitter
nephew.. James Shaw(4).,b.B/wood
nephew..Wm Shaw(34)..b.Parr.St Helens..labourer

HUGE gap between James age 4 and Thos(26) !


1901 UK Census. 6,Broad Lane.,Burtonwood.

head..Ellen Shaw(75)..Widow..b.B/wood.
son..William Shaw(45)..b.Parr...woodsawyers labourer.
son..Piers Shaw(37)..b.Parr..platelayer on railway.
grandson..James Shaw..b.B/wood..

Ah,..so James is grandson of Ellen,so gt nephew(?)of Peter Whitfield in 1891?


1911 UK Census..Broad Lane.,Burtonwood.

head..James Shaw(52)..b.Parr...coal miner.,hewer
dau..Ellen Shaw(21)..b.Parr
dau..Lily Shaw(9)..b.Parr
dau..Bessie Shaw(6).,b.Parr
dau..Christine Shaw(4)..b.B/wood
bro..Peter Shaw(48)..b.Parr...per way(?)platelayer on railway
bro..William Shaw(54)..b.Parr...asst woodsawyer
wife..Margaret Shaw(44)...b.Southport
son..James Shaw(24)..b.B/wood...clerk.colliery
son..Richard Shaw(23)..b.Parr...clerk.colliery
son..John W Shaw(17)..b.Parr...pit sub repairer.surface
son..Thomas E Shaw(13)..b.Parr...brewers hand
son..Peter Shaw(11)..b.Parr..scholar
son..Frederick Shaw(11)..b.Parr...scholar
son..Alfred Shaw(1)..b.B/wood

Peter and Frederick=twins?

Poor Margaret...all them lads and no little girl to help her! lol

thankyou...knew it would be something simple!

pob = place of birth

h/h = head of household

thnx M.....i might be thick,but whats h/hs and pob ? I know its prob summat simple,but i cant see it..sorry.
I have these two written down..marked em "sisters of John?",but hadnt taken notice that they were the same date!

Here's a lookup of 3 adjacent 1851 h/h's

Piece Folio Page Full name Registration district Transcript Image
HO107 /2195 452 45 SHAW, William Prescot a=26 pob=Parr Coal Miner
HO107 /2195 452 45 SHAW, Ellen Prescot a=25 pob=Burtonwood
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, John Prescot a=38 pob=Burtonwood Railway Plate Layer
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, Margaret Prescot a=24 pob=Parr
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, Peter Prescot a=3 pob=Parr
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, Ellen Prescot a=7m pob=Parr
HO107 /2195 452 45 KNOWLES, Thomas Prescot a=25 pob=Parr Coal Miner
HO107 /2195 452 45 KNOWLES, Elizabeth Prescot a=22 pob=Burtonwood

Looks like a double wedding:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WHITFIELD Ellen SHAW William St Thomas Eccleston St Helens C2/1/123
WHITFIELD Elizabeth KNOWLES Thomas St Thomas Eccleston St Helens C2/1/124

Marriage: 13 Jan 1850 St Thomas, Eccleston, Lancs.
William Shaw - 25 Miner Bachelor of Parr
Ellen Whitfield - 24 Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: Richard Shaw, Miner
Bride's Father: Peter Whitfield, Farmer
Witness: Peter Whitfield; Margaret Whitfield, (X)
Married by Banns by: Alfred Hewlett Off. Min.
Register: Marriages 1841 - 1858, Page 62, Entry 123
Source: LDS Film 1849656

Marriage: 13 Jan 1850 St Thomas, Eccleston, Lancs.
Thomas Knowles - 23 Miner Bachelor of Parr
Elizabeth Whitfield - (X), 20 Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: Joseph Knowles, Miner
Bride's Father: Peter Whitfield, Farmer
Witness: Thomas Ramsdale; Ellen Whitfield
Married by Banns by: Alfred Hewlett Off. Min.
Register: Marriages 1841 - 1858, Page 62, Entry 124
Source: LDS Film 1849656

I think this is strong, but circumstantial, evidence supporting LanAnn's conjectured 1841 family.

Note that Ellen says Peter's a farmer in 1850 - Eliz follows along with this.