Genealogy Chat

Wow! Jacqueline that's a great piece on info regarding the marriage of the Singlehursts thank you.

you guys are so fast, just amazing...

I have to log off now but this is addictive... back later or tomorrow
thank you all ,,, I still haven't read all the posts...

Williams age on the marriage certificate is given as 19 so 1927-19 = born1907/08, depending on when in the year he was born/married. Unless anyone was telling porkies.The tree looks well researched, but Ancestry trees are well known for copying from each other and all the mistakes go too.

You had said there were 3 children and I had suggested early in the thread you could find their names by entering Frith/Singlehurst - by doing this it threw up 1 in 1928 Northampton and 2 further births in the Coventry area - 1929 and 1932. A further post by me at 1800 gives a bit more info on these and indicates there may have been a 4th birth in London 1946.

Yes, info about the parents from the tree on Ancestry, but rootgatherer has given you a possible for the family in 1911 Manchester, so perhaps the tree owner assumed born Coventry? If the family moved nearer to Coventry when William was small he may have thought that's where he came from. Again root gatherer has posted a possible baptism for him in Manchester 1907, so look for a relevant birth.

Nothing further on William - I mean William Frith who you wanted to know about. Presume it's Hughey FC Collins you knew as Charles? There's a picture of Hughey on the Ancestry tree.

It is the dickson Family Tree on Ancestry that has the info. The owner is russelld928 who last signed in over a year ago.

If you don't have Ancestry you can maybe get a free trial for 2 weeks - if they ask for money, make sure you cancel the payment before the end of the trial period; or you may be able to access at your local library.

You may find you need to buy a certificate or two to confirm findings here on GR. 6 weeks were allowed in which to register a birth so for latish November onwards 1907, the registration might be Quarter 1, the March Quarter 1908

The Frith/Collins marriage was in 1974

This was the husband

COLLINS HUGH FREDERICK C 1908 — 1908 Births & baptisms Camberwell, London, England

COLLINS HUGH FREDERICK C 1908 1994 1994 Deaths & burials Wandsworth, London, England


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
22 Relf Road Peckham S E, Camberwell, London, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
William Collins Head Married Male Printers Warehouse 33 1878 London Peckham Transcription
Adelaide Collins Wife Married Female - 33 1878 London Bermondsey Transcription
Adelaide Doris Collins Daughter Single Female School 11 1900 London Peckham Transcription
William James Collins Son Single Male School 9 1902 London Peckham Transcription
Hugh Fredirick Collins Son Single Male - 2 1909 London Peckham Transcription


His first marriage was in 1934

There is so much info here my head is spinning, some of it I know but there is a huge that I don't - so thank you, it will take me a while to work through it.

GG (GreyGhost) - yes there were 3 in that marriage - Irene who died @ 2yrs (I never knew about that until couple of days ago. then Dad and his sister (still living)

Then ... Grace (Elizabeth Grace - my Grandm) remarried Charles (as I knew him)
COLLINS HUGH FREDERICK C they had a daughter 1946 (still living)

russelld928 - Dickson I know the name must be my living aunty b.1932 on dad's side son in her 2nd marriage.

I think I need to purchase a copy of dad's birth certificate & the marriage certificate 1927 of my dad's dad Frith and my grandm Singlehurst to establish details here are correct. Then I can proceed further.

THANK YOU ALL :) ... I'll let you know how I get on.

Jacqueline, thank you for the Collins side, I never knew my Grandm didn't get married till so late!!! that was a long time after their daughter was born in 1946.

It is funny, when I look back that we are bought up to be good and right ... and there is my Grandm with a child out of wedlock for may years, after looking through the history it was in fact a very common thing but people just kept quiet about it....

Unless ... my grandm was in fact still married and still a Frith? could that be the case? I need to look back to see if one of you came up with my dad's dad date of death...

Thank you all :)

When I looked originally I saw the 1974 marriage come up to Collins and presumed (wrong thing to do) that the 1946 birth was either of the Frith/Singlehurst marriage or had been registered in Mother's name at the time - Frith, whether she was with William or not, that would have been her surname.

The 1946 birth is registered 3 times
1 x surname Frith mmn Singlehurst - the page number here differs slightly from one of those registered under Collins
2 x surname Collins mmn Singlehurst

Someone with better knowledge than me may be able to explain.

I'm thinking along the lines that they were not free to marry in 1946, so the child was registered as Frith/Singlehurst, but then Hughey Collins admitted paternity, so the birth was also registered that way. Maybe they weren't free to marry until 1974, but may just not have got around to it until then?

Alviegal -
you posted a 1901 census yesterday asking if Samuel Andrew could be Samuel Andrew Frith with the surname missing? It said that he was born in Guide Bridge, so have had a look around the census. Samuel Andrew born c 1879 seems to be quite a popular name in the area, but I think this may well be "your" Samuel in 1881 - and to make things more complicated (or maybe easier!!!!) he is nephew to a Frith.


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
21, Dearden Street, Manchester, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ann Frith Head Widow Female 44 1837 - Ripley, Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth Andrew Sister Married Female 26 1855 - Derbyshire, England
Samuel Andrew Nephew Single Male 1 1880 - Guide Bridge, Cheshire, England
Thomas Swindell Lodger Single Male 30 1851 Railway Porter Manchester, Lancashire, England

Hugh's first wife

COLLINS IVY CHARLOTTE 1905 1991 1991 Deaths & burials Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire, England

There is also a re-registration of the 1946 birth in 1974

Holy Corumba! This is so exciting! :)

Except I'm digressing from my true Grandad... but never mind...

I was always lead to believe that my aunt b1946 was a Collins & not a Frith and Hughey (Charles was always 'there' in the house since I was tiny.)
I'm not so keen to follow this lead as Aunt b.1946 took my Grandmother away from both my dad and his sister, and she was never seen again! :( distgusting behavior!

But I do have another question to ask... on the Singlehurst Line... I have come to a dead end! shall I post here?

So I am trying to find the mother of Louie/Louisa/Leese all that is listed is her name Grace ... I think she may be Indian... I'm so excited to be able to find this

Name: Louisa Augustus Pettit
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 02 Nov 1884
Christening Place: Allahabad, Bengal, India
Birth Date: 10 Sep 1884
Father's Name: Edward Pettit
Mother's Name: Grace

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C75029-5 , System Origin: India-EASy , GS Film number: 510874 , Reference ID: v 190 p 222

Mother's first name(s) Louie Magdalen

British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns- Births & Baptisms Transcription
First name(s) Elizabeth Grace
Last name Singlehurst
Baptism year 1907
Birth year 1907
Place Tundla
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Louie Magdalen
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) Alfred William
Father's last name Singlehurst
Baptism date 24 Mar 1907
Birth date 17 Feb 1907
Archive reference N-1-338
Folio 128
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal
Record set British India Office births & baptisms

Re Alviegirl's 1901 census.

I think it's the right one - however, I think Elizabeth/Eliza is Ann's daur, and Sam's her grandson.

I don't know why Samuel Andrew is called Samuel Andrew Firth.
Here's what happened with my gg gran & her kids (names changed to match this thread). Elizabeth Frith had my g grandad George Frith - an illegitimate birth. She the married William Andrew, and had 2 kids - Samuel Andrew & Samantha Andrew. George was renamed as George Andrew. The marr didn't work out, and they separated. Elizabeth renamed George back to being George Frith, and renamed William's kids as Samuel Andrew Frith & Samantha Andrew Frith, When they were 21 one kid renamed himself back to Samuel Andrew, but the other kept
Samantha Andrew Frith until her marriage.

Using http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd in particular LancsBMD and ChesBMD, and also using:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND

1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQ8D-SJG
Ann Frith Head F 44 Ripley, Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth Andrew Sister F 26 Chapel Le Frith, Derbyshire, England
Samuel Andrew Nephew M 1 Guide Bridge, Cheshire, England
Thomas Swindell Lodger M 30 Manchester, Lancashire, England
[Guide Bridge is just N of Audenshaw]

1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD6B-Y3H
William Frith Head M 44 Chapel-En-Le-Frith, Derbyshire
Ann Frith Wife F 38 Chapel-En-Le-Frith, Derbyshire
Eliza Frith Daughter F 17 Chapel-En-Le-Frith, Derbyshire
Wright Frith Son M 14 Disley, Cheshire
Samuel Frith Son M 12 Manchester

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ANDREW William FRITH Eliza Ancoats, St. Andrew Archives+, Manchester Central Library 16/2/449
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2332-BCR [with image link]

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1855
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
FRITH Wright Marple Stockport STEEPLES MAR/7/17
FRITH George Marple Stockport STEEPLES MAR/7/17

Maybe:
Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1856
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
FRITH George Leigh 0 Hyde Tameside HYD/17/58

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1858
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
FRITH Samuel London Road Archives+, Manchester Central Library STAPLES LRD/49/80

1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7F9-Z68
William Frith Ann 1827 city, Derbyshire, England Head city, Lancashire
Ann Frith William 1834 city, Derbyshire, England relation city, Lancashire
Eliza Frith William,Ann 1852 city, Derbyshire, England relation city, Lancashire
Wright Frith William,Ann 1855 city, Cheshire, England relation city, Lancashire
Samuel Frith William,Ann 1857 city relation city, Lancashire
[I don't have an Ancestry sub, so I can't tell if the Frith h/h contains non-Friths. the above straddles 2 pages in different folios viz rg9/2946/67 and rg9/2946/68]

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRITH William STAPLES Ann Ancoats, St. Andrew Archives+, Manchester Central Library 16/1/135

Marriages Dec 1850 (>99%)
Frith William Manchester 20 432
Steeples Ann Manchester 20 432

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2332-Z9F [with image link]
[Note this is entry # 135, as implied by the local ref - I can quite see the Staples/Steeples ambiguity - I'm inclined to Steeples, as there'[s plenty of ordinary looking a's: Labourer, Servant, Ancoats, Samuel, Farmer, Sawyer]

First name(s) Edward William Charles
Last name Pettit
Marriage year 1883
Marriage date 6 Nov 1883
Spouse's first name Grace
Spouse's last name Beally
Place Chunar,Holy Trinity
Presidency Bengal
Groom's age 55
Bride's age 27
Groom's father's first name ORoger
Groom's father's last name Pettit
Bride's father's first name Charles
Bride's father's last name Beally
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-186
Folio number 56
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages

First name(s) Charles Edward William
Last name Pettit
Baptism year 1859
Birth year 1859
Place Mynpoorie
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Eliza
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) Edward Charles William
Father's last name Pettit
Baptism date 12 Sep 1859
Birth date 05 Sep 1859
Archive reference N-1-96
Folio 32

First name(s) Edward William
Last name Pettit
Marriage year 1857
Marriage date 2 Nov 1857
Spouse's first name Charlis Eliza
Spouse's last name Ramage
Place Dagshai
Presidency Bengal
Groom's father's first name Richard
Groom's father's last name Pettit
Bride's father's first name Adam
Bride's father's last name Tilley
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-92
Folio number 862

mgnv - Thank you I have so much reading and understanding to do with the Frith family.

Jacqueline - THANK U
How did you get this information?
so quickly?
how sure are you that it is correct?
is there a way I can find out if Grace or her daughter Louisa was Anglo Indian/Indian... I would so love to know, we as a family have discussed this for years even when dad was alive... we all believe this is the case, as there were so many secrets & tales...
We know there was a lot of soldiers & British railway workers in India at this time having relationships with beautiful Indian women.

I so wish I had done this while dad was still alive, he would have LOVED it!

Thank you all :-)

Note the birth date on his baptism, matches the birth date given on his death:

Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms
Name: William Frith
Birth Date: 27 Nov
Baptism Date: 11 Dec 1907
Parish: Manchester, St Philip
Parish as it Appears: St Philip, Bradford Rd
Father's name: Samuel Frith (Spindle ?lder- possibly moulder)
Mother's name: Lily Frith
Reference Number: M299/3/1/7
Item Number: 2
Archive Roll: 857
Address: 25 Clayton Street.

Death:
First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name FRITH
Gender Male
Birth 27 November 1907
Death year 1984
Death quarter 1
District TRURO
Register number 384
County Cornwall
Volume 21 Page 703
Country England

I think Louisa, if you want to know about your Grandfather's life after his marriage to your Grandmother, your first step should be to order a copy of his death certificate. The informant's details may prove helpful. Remember to order from the GRO as they are cheaper than any other source.

Hi Rootgatherer ok I am making a list of certificates that I will need to order to help confirm and put together all this wonderful information :)

what is GRO?

thank you Gritty that makes sense :)

GRO- General Registry Office:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

it's where you can order your certificates on-line :)

You'll need the volume and page numbers from the indexes.

Louisa, go slowly with the certificates. Your Grandparents' marriage certificate is on Ancestry, albeit it difficult to read. If we are correct about William's father, then his parents' marriage certificate is also available on Ancestry.

Some libraries have a subscription to Ancestry but Ancestry also over a pay as you go option which may work out cheaper than buying the certificates.