Genealogy Chat

Hi Austin looking at Ellens marraige certificate she was living at 359 st james road. She had Chris a quite a few months earlier.

There are quite a few interesting snippets on the families mentioned.

This is Ellen's Uncle- (her mother's half brother):

BOY AND GIRL TRAGEDY IN THE BOROUGH.

William Mills, 18, carman, of Falstaff Yard, Borough, and John Smith, 20, costermonger, of Tabard Street, were remanded, at Southwark Police-court, on Monday, by Mr. Paul Taylor, on a charge of being concerned together in the manslaughter of Rosina Beatrice Clark, 17, brush drawer, of Tabard Street, by striking her with their fists in Great Dover Street, on the night of Sunday, Oct. 28th, thereby causing her death on Thursday, Nov. Ist, at Guy's Hospital, from peritonitis.
It appeared that the lad Mills and the girl Clark had been '' keeping company" for nine months, but that latterly the girl, who was very wellbehaved and respectable, disapproved of the conduct of her lover, and gave him the " cold shoulder." Meeting her in company with others, his jealousy was aroused, and it is alleged that the fatal assault followed. When arrested on Sunday night last, he expressed great sorrow at the unhappy result of the quarrel, and admitted that he struck the deceased; but he declared that Smith, who had been paying her attentions, and been repulsed, had also struck her ; and upon that statement, together with other information, the officer proceeded to arrest Smith.
At an inquest held on the girl on Tuesday. the jury found a verdict of " Death from natural causes," but condemned the cowardly conduct of those who knocked a girl down.

Ah- this looks to be Ellen's father- admitted to the workhouse in 1914:

Name: George Carpenter
Birth Date: 1876
Admission Age: 38
Admission Date: 11 Feb 1914
Record Type: Admission
Condition:- General dealer
Observation on admittance: Epileptic
Borough: Southwark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Camberwell
Place: London, England
Title: Constance Road Workhouse,

He was discharged a week later, but the records on Ancestry suggest he was in and out of the workhouse on many occasions.

Just backtracking a little- Ellen had a brother George William Carpenter born 1901. On his military records it gives his next of kin as Father, George Carpenter, Epsom Asylum, Epsom, Surrey.- No idea why he was in the asylum yet.

Interestingly, George William gives his address on the military record in 1917 as 359 St Jame's Road (this is the address of Aunty Marsh). His military record also has a copy of his birth certificate:

George William Carpenter
born: 29 December 1900
Address: 11 Falstaff Yard
Father: George Carpenter- general dealer
Mother: Ellen Carpenter, formerly Hall
Informant: Alice Mills (present at birth) 11 Falstaff Yard

It is a shame, Sam. Do you have Christopher's birth certificate?

What was Ellen's occupation and address?

wow Austin, this makes sense now, its so lovely that its coming together, just such a shame we wont ever find out who Chris dad is.

I hope all this makes sense to you Sam, if there's anything you don't understand just let me know.

This is George, with his family (sister Sarah Ann) in 1891:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Falstaff Yard, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

William Carpenter Head Married Male 43 1848 Hawker London, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Carpenter Wife Married Female 42 1849 - London, Middlesex, England
George Carpenter Son - Male 12 1879 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
James Carpenter Son - Male 6 1885 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Sarah Carpenter Daughter - Female 15 1876 - London, Middlesex, England

OK- I think that address is the key.

Joseph Marsh married Sarah Ann Carpenter in 1894.

Name: Joseph Marsh
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1874
Marriage Date: 5 Aug 1894
Marriage Place: All Saints, Walworth, Southwark, England
Father: John Marsh
Spouse: Sarah Ann Carpenter
Spouse father: William Carpenter - general dealer
Register Type: Parish Register
---------------------------------

Joseph and Sarah in 1911:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
21 Goldie St Camberwell S E, Camberwell, London & Surrey, England

Joseph Marsh Husband Married Male General Dealer 37 1874 Southwark London
Sarah A Marsh Wife Married Female - 35 1876 Southwark London
Sarah A Marsh Daughter Single Female - 16 1895 Southwark London
Hannah Marsh Daughter Single Female - 14 1897 Southwark London
Elizabeth Marsh Daughter - Female - 10 1901 Southwark London
Mary Marsh Daughter - Female - 6 1905 Southwark London
Maude Marsh Daughter - Female - 5 1906 Southwark London
Ivy Marsh Daughter - Female - 0 1911 Camberwell London
-------------------------

and in 1939:
Marsh Household (2 People) 359 St James's Road , Camberwell, London, England

Joseph Marsh 22 Oct 1874 Male Florist Married
Sarah A Marsh 02 Oct 1875 Female Florist Married
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So it appears that Aunty Sarah Ann Marsh, nee Carpenter, was George's sister. (so she was Ellen's Aunt)

OK- now making some progress!

When Ellen marries Edward, she give her address as 359 St James Road.

Looking at the electoral registers, in 1921

359 St James Road, Camberwell

William Carpenter
Joseph Marsh
Sarah Ann Marsh.
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So Sarah could be Aunty Marsh.

Give me a moment and I'll be back with a little more

Were really not sure Austin :( as Chris only remembers calling her Aunty Marsh. I will try and ask him again. He was brought up by his step father Edward and changed his name from Carpenter to Edwards. We can not thank everyone enough on this thread for their help and time.

Ellen (Catherine Sarah)'s Mum in 1939:

Carpenter Household (2 People) 6 Crosslet Street , Southwark, London, England

Ellen Carpenter 30 Jun 1879 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
James Carpenter 20 Nov 1905 Male Draperysalesman Incapacitated Single
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So, who was 'Aunty Marsh' ? Sam, was Marsh a surname? Do you know anything about Aunty Marsh?

Ellen/ Helen and sister Alice in 1891:


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Falstaff Yard, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

William Mills Head Married Male 31 1860 Hawker London, Middlesex,
Helen Mills Wife Married Female 26 1865 - London, Middlesex, England
Helen Mills Daughter - Female 9 1882 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
William Mills Son - Male 7 1884 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Alice Mills Daughter - Female 3 1888 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Caroline Mills Daughter - Female 1 1890 - London, Middlesex,

Ah- this is Ellen's parent's in 1901- note the sister's name- MILLS:

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
11, Falstaff Yard, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey,

George Carpenter Head Married Male 22 1879 General Dealer Southwark, Surrey,
Ellen Carpenter Wife Married Female 21 1880 - Southwark, Surrey,
George W Carpenter Son Single Male 0 1901 - Southwark, Surrey,
Alice Mills Sister Single Female 14 1887 - Southwark, Surrey, England
---------------------------------

birth of sister:
MILLS, ALICE CAROLINE mmn: HALL
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 29

baptism:
Name: Alice Caroline Mills
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 17 Apr 1887
Baptism Place: Walworth St John the Evangelist, Southwark, England
Father: William Mills
Mother: Ellen Mills
Register Type: Parish Registers

So it looks like Ellen was born before her mother married William Mills.

Possible marriage for Ellen Hall to William Mills in 1883

Good find Margaret.

Something's a little strange somewhere.

The birth record for Ellen states mother's maiden name MILLS.

But looking at the records George Carpenter married Ellen HALL

The other children in the 1911 census possibly have mother's maiden name Hall on the indexes:

Births:
CARPENTER, GEORGE WILLIAM mmn: HALL
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 36

CARPENTER, WILLIAM JAMES mmn: HAW
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in WINDSOR Volume 02C Page 454

CARPENTER, JAMES HENRY HALL Order
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in WINDSOR Volume 02C Page 455
----------------------------------

But interestingly when George and Ellen marry, one of the witnesses is an Eliza MILLS.

Marriage:

Name: George Carpenter
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1878
Marriage Date: 12 Mar 1899
Marriage Place: St Mary Magdalene, Southwark, Southwark, England
Father: William Carpenter
Spouse: Ellen Hall
Register Type: Parish Register

A father was entered for Ellen, but then crossed out.
Witnesses were Eliza Mills and John Carpenter.

Edward Herry Edwards
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1931
Name:
Edward Herry Edwards
Marriage Age:
25
Record Type:
Marriage
Birth Date:
abt 1902
Marriage Date:
4 Jun 1927
Marriage Place:
St Bartholomew, Camberwell, Southwark, England
Father:
Alfred James Edwards
Spouse:
Ellen Carpenter

Original says her father James Carpenter, salesman, deceased. His father also a salesman, deceased.

EDIT: Her birth record gives parents George & Ellen.

Thank you all for the information. Still getting the hang of things!

Births Jun 1928
EDWARDS Rosina L W Carpenter Camberwell 1d 1125

Marriages Mar 1958

EDWARDS Rosina L W TAYLOR. Camberwell 5c. 301
TAYLOR Charles R EDWARDS Camberwell 5c 301

I take it that Christopher is the grandfather so you know who he married
There is a possible marriage in1956

Details on freebmd

The cert will give his age and who he named as father

He seems to have lived with his mum and Edward H for some time

Hello Sam- only just noticed that you sent a message- I hope you don't mind, but I'll paste the message here as it's easier for other members to help when you post your replies on the board.

"I’m trying to look into Ellen as my husbands grandfather never knew his father and didn’t really see his mother. How did you go about finding this and is there any more links to her. This is defiantly his mother.

Also with a close record what does that mean?

Fairly new to this but very excited with the progress!!!

Thank you again for your time and reply. "
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I take it your husband's grandfather was Christopher??

As Christopher was born (and registered) with his mother's surname it is unlikely that his birth certificate will state any father's name. Occasionally you may find a paternity case in the papers which identifies fathers, but not very often. It would be useful to have Christopher's birth certificate as this will tell you where Ellen was living a t the time and could provide useful clues.

A closed record on the 1939 register indicates people that were born less than 100 years ago

"Individuals’ records remain closed for 100 years from their date of birth (100 year rule). Records remain closed for people born less than 100 years ago until proof of death is verified. As more records become open as a result of the 100 year rule, more records will become available to search and view online at Findmypast."
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The closed records on Ellen and Edward's 1939 entry are most likely to be Ellen's children, Christopher and Rosina.