Genealogy Chat

Big THANK YOU to all who have helped me on this subject. I have learned a lot.

Thanks again. :-) :-)

rootgatherer, I have realised that after doing my family history its just that my nan was such a prim and proper person it was just such a shock to realise she wasnt married to my 'uncle Harry'. At least not for a good few years. I now realise why none of us knew that she had got married in 1954 as she then would have had to admit they wernt married before. ;-)

That was far more common than you think. Most people wouldn't have enough spare cash to spend on divorce so just lived together until their legal spouse died and they were free to marry. :-)

ArgyllGran, I think it was proberly the latter as I don't know when my granddad died.
It just goes to show what secrets this ancestry turns up. My nan was a very stern unforgiving sort of person and I am amazed she 'lived in sin' all those years.
;-)

Perhaps they only married to avoid inheritance problems.

Or perhaps Alice wasn't free to marry, as RG suggested.

Who knows?!

Thank you rootgatherer.
They definatly did live together after 1946 (when I was born) as they lived next door to us but as a youngster I always thought they were married.I was very surprised when I found out they had married as late as 1954. I wonder why they waited so long. Another mystery.

Thanks ArgyllGran. The year is clearly 87 on the image. I found it by looking for Herbert, just in the off chance that Alice was living nearby. And hey presto! She's lurking in the same household. Not sure who the other couple are but maybe relatives of either Alice or Herbert.

Yes!! Well done, RG.

Here's Herbert's death, with same DOB -

Herbert John Harridine
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Herbert John Harridine
Death Age: 82
Birth Date: 18 Sep 1902
Registration Date: May 1985
Registration district: Brentwood
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 9
Page: 1444

Perhaps Alice's DOB is just a mistake by the enumerator - 87 instead of 78.
Or maybe deliberate - she was c24 years older than Herbert after all!

??????

Could she have knocked a few years off her age?

They may have lived as husband and wife but not married until after George had died?

1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
Oranski Household (5 People)
36a Dean Road , Willesden M.B., Middlesex, England

Herbert J Harridine
DOB 18 Sep 1902
SEX Male
OCCUPATION Fitter-Assistant-Heavy Work
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 311
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 5

~??? Oranski
DOB 18 Jan 1906
SEX Female
OCCUPATION Clerk
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 311
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 1

~??? Oakley (Orkinski)
DOB 20 Feb 1910
SEX Female
OCCUPATION Unpaid Domestic
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 311
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 2

Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

Alice Harridine
DOB 16 Dec 1887
SEX Female
OCCUPATION Unpaid Domestic
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 311
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 4
Ref: RG101/0981C/021/24 Letter Code:
© Findmypast Ltd

Ah! Interesting -

In 1901, Alice is at home with her birth family.
She's listed as married, but her married name isn't given. Maybe just a mistake by the enumerator. Or maybe the marriage had run into problems, although they were together again by 1911:


Alice Robertson
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Alice Robertson
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: Thomas Robertson
Mother: Alice Robertson
Birth Place: Islington, London, England
Civil Parish: Willesden
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Hendon
Sub-registration district: Willesden
ED, institution, or vessel: 45
Neighbors:
Piece: 1222
Folio: 30
Page Number: 52
Household schedule number: 399
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Robertson 43
Alice Robertson 43
Thomas Robertson 24
Alice Robertson 21
Ernest Robertson 18
Albert Robertson 15

Yes, think I will have to do that.

Anyway Thank You so much for all the info you have given me and all your time.
Kindest regards.
:-)

However, I still can't find her in 1939!

I think you'll need to buy a copy of her birth cert, as posted above, to find out her exact DOB.

I'm guessing it's given wrongly in 1939, but at least if we had the full date, instead of just the year, we could maybe figure out which Alice is her in 1939.

Thats right. This is her. Her husband registered her death.

Marriages Sep 1954 (>99%)
HARRIDINE Herbert J TUCKER Brentwood 4a 1154
Tucker Alice Harridine Brentwood 4a 1154


So is this perhaps her death ??

Alice Harridine
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Alice Harridine
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: abt 1877
Registration Date: Sep 1964
Registration district: Brentwood
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 378

Also listed as Harradine:

Alice Harradine
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Alice Harradine
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: abt 1877
Registration Date: Sep 1964
Registration district: Brentwood
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 378


Age at death depends on how accurate the informant's knowledge was.

Going by the dates of the two marriages, it look as if she was born during the last month or so of 1878 (or early 1879) , and her birth not registered until the start of 1879.

just re looked up her certificates that I have.
first marriage to George in 1899 she was 21 (1878)
2nd marriage to Herbert Harridine in 1954 she was 75 (1879)
Died in 1964 she was 87. (1877)

:-S confused.

Here are Alice and family in 1881:


Alice Ansley
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Alice Ansley
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Thomas Robertson
Gender: Female
Where born: Clerkinghall, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 74 High Street
Registration district: Islington
Sub registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 77
Neighbors:
Piece: 273
Folio: 92
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Robertson 34
Alicia M. Ansley 24
Thomas W. Ansley 4
Alice Ansley 2
Earnest Ansley

So she was born somewhere between October 1878 and March 1879.

The only Alice tucker I can see in Essex in 1939 is this one - single, and born 1880, so almost certainly not her:

Alice M Tucker
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Alice M Tucker
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 24 Dec 1880
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 15.Milton Crescent
Residence Place: Ilford, Essex, England
Occupation: Supervisor (Filing & Circularisin[g] )
Schedule Number: 140
Sub Schedule Number: 4
Enumeration District: CCWL
Registration district: 191-2.
Household Members:
Name
Mary J Coke
Elsie M Coke
Irene B Coke
Alice M Tucker


How do you know her year of birth?
Are you just going by her death record?

Her marriage record says she was 21, which (if she was telling the truth about her age) should mean her YOB was 1878 - or just possibly 1877.

Her father Thomas was a coachman.
That means the 1891 census posted earlier by Malyon will probably be the correct one - Thomas is a groom and coachman on that one.

These are her siblings' births:

ROBERTSON, ALBERT mms ANSLEY
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 292

ROBERTSON, ARTHUR mms ANSLEY
GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 403
(I can't see Arthur after this - presumably he died in infancy, though I don't see his death. In 1911 census Thomas and Alice say they've had 5 children, one of whom had died.)

ROBERTSON, ERNEST mms ANSLEY
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 732


Parents' marriage:

Marriages Mar 1882 (>99%)
ANSLEY Alice Maud Islington 1b 456
ROBERTSON Thomas Islington 1b 456

Children Thomas and Alice were born to Alice Maud before she married.

ANSLEY, THOMAS WILLIAM -
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 405

ANSLEY, ALICE -
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 224

ArgyllGran, WOW the info on George is fantastic. Thats more than I have ever been able to find.Thank you so much.
FMP is free this weekend and I had a quick look and I think Alice may have been living in Essex but I cant open the records if this is any help.Just wish I knew her DOB.

I know from 1946 she was not living with George but dont know how long before that.
Thank you for all your help so far.

Having scoured the 1939 register for Alice Tuckers with no middle name, born 1879, I can't see any who aren't either married to someone other than George, single, or widowed.

It's possible that the DOB given in 1939 is incorrect - which is why it would be good to know Alice's actual DOB.

There is no birth in London of an Alice Robertson with no middle name, 1878-80.

Do you know if Alice had siblings?

Malyon posted an 1891 census record for an Alice Robertson with father Thomas.

Here's another Alice with father Thomas, which would fit with the birth of Alice Maud (mms Evans):


Alice Robertson
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Alice Robertson
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Thomas J. Robertson
Mother: Sarah Robertson
Gender: Female
Where born: Poplar, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Bromley St Leonard
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 40 Culloden St
Registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 43
Neighbors:
Piece: 503
Folio: 86
Page Number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas J. Robertson 35
Sarah Robertson 36
Sarah Robertson 9
Wilfred Robertson 5
Alice Robertson 2

Parents' marriage;

Marriages Sep 1866 (>99%)
Evans Sarah Shoreditch 1c 336
ROBERTSON Thomas J Shoreditch 1c 336