Genealogy Chat

I'd be grateful for some help, please, with an intractable problem. It concerns Poppy and it may turn into a long read.
Here's her GRO record:

HIND, FLORENCE POPPY MARY ANNIE PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 584

I have found her in C1891 (where she is Popy Hene) and C1911 but have so far not been able to find her in C1901.
Her MMN is given as Petherick (the family I'm investigating) but I have failed to find a Petherick - Hind marriage.

In later life she seems to have used Hind and Phillipps (various spellings), here's her marriage record for example:

Name: Florence Poppy Mary Annie Phillippe Hind
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 29
Birth Date: abt 1889
Marriage Place: Leyton, St Paul, Essex, England
Marriage Date: 17 Apr 1918
Father: William Henry Hind
Spouse: Augustine Cannell

There is a Petherick - Phillipps marriage:

Name: William Henry Phillipps
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1864
Marriage Date: 18 Oct 1886
Marriage Place: West Hackney, Hackney, England
Father: William Henry Phillipps
Spouse: Florence Petherick
Register Type: Parish Register

Given both "Florence" and "Phillipps" in her name, plus her DoB just after the marriage, these seem (highly) likely to be her parents. If so, where does "Hind" come from?

In a parallel search, I have found in C1891:

Name: Sophia Lyles
Gender: Female
Age: 52
Relationship: Sister-in-law
Birth Year: 1839
Birth Place: Finsbury, London, England
Civil Parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabus
Residence Place: Hackney, London, England
Registration District: Hackney
Sub registration district: Hackney
ED, Institution or Vessel: 44
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 202
Folio: 105
Household Members:
Name Age
William Phillips 62
James Lyles 48
Sophia Lyles 52

Now it turns out that Lyles is a mis-transcription of Tyler, and Sophie was born Sophie Hind

Record Transcription:
England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
First name(s) JAMES
Last name TYLER
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1886
Registration month -
MarriageFinder ™

JAMES TYLER married one of these people

Sophia Hind, Emma Maria Pullin

District Hackney
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1B
Volume as transcribed 1B
Page number 877
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Collections from Great Britain, England

and:

James Tyler Head Married Male 37 1844 Boot Maker Sheerness, Kent, England
Sophia Tyler Wife Married Female 43 1838 - Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Noting that Sophia was "sister jn law" to William Phillips in C1891, this suggests a connection, but I have so far been able to demonstrate one.

This has been further complicated by a plethora of William Henry Phillip(p)s .

What I am looking for is evidence that Poppy really was the daughter of Florence Petherick - or not of course, an explanation of where Hind fits in, and which William Henry Phillipps is the father of the WHP who married Florence Petherick (I think I have already eliminated the WHP who married Henrietta).

Might someone be able and willing to help please?

Many thanks

Keth

Florence Poppy in 1901:

Florence P Phillipps
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Florence P Phillipps
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: William H Phillipps
Mother: Florence Phillipps
Birth Place: Hackney, London, England
Civil Parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: St John Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 344 Mare Street
Registration District: Hackney
Sub-registration District: Central Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors:
Piece: 217
Folio: 96
Page Number: 7
Household Schedule Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
William H Phillipps 37 - Shoreditch, delivery foreman, dock warehouse
Florence Phillipps 33 - Hackney
Florence P Phillipps 12 - Hackney
Thomas W Phillipps 11 - Hackney

Well goodness me! Now why on earth couldn't I find that (don't answer that ).
Thank you ArgyllGran!

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HIND, WILLIAM THOMAS PETHERICK PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 572

The name Phillips also comes into the mix in Florence senior's mother's name:

Martha Emily Phillips Rogers
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Martha Emily Phillips Rogers
Registration Year: 1848
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Truro
Inferred County: Cornwall
Volume: 9
Page: 313
Records on Page:
Name
Thomas Petherick
Martha Emily Phillips Rogers


Both parents died in Hackney - Thomas in 1890 and Martha in 1898.

Well that implies there was a Petherick - Hind marriage, doesn't it?
Thank you safc!

Record Transcription:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

15, Bishops Road, Hackney, London & Middlesex, England

Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Petherick Head Married Male 57 1824 Compositor Truro, Cornwall, England
Martha Petherick Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales
Augustus Petherick Son Single Male 22 1859 Painter (House) Blackfriars, Middlesex, England
Florence Petherick Daughter Single Female 18 1863 Milliner London, Middlesex, England xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amelia Petherick Daughter Single Female 16 1865 - London, Middlesex, England
Albert Petherick Son Single Male 14 1867 Errand Boy Hackney, Middlesex, England
Eunice Petherick Daughter Single Female 7 1874 - Hackney, Middlesex, England
Edward Rogers Lodger Single Male 40 1841 Painter (House) Wales
Henry Kunz Lodger Head Married Male 46 1835 Traveller ? Germany
Bessie Kunz Wife Married Female 26 1855 - Truro, Cornwall, England
Lillian Kunz Daughter Single Female 6 1875 - Hackney, Middlesex, England
Charles Kunz Son Single Male 5 1876 - Hackney, Middlesex, England

Yes, safc, that's the family. And Florence married William Henry Phillipps.
Poppy was with the same family in 1891 and then with the Kunz family in 1911.

The grandparents marriage, Martha Emily Phillips Rogers, could be the source of the Phillipps name for Poppy but she seems to use it as a family / surname. I suspect the Petherick - Phillipps marriage is a more likely source tho'

William Henry Hind
in the 1911 England Census
Name: William Henry Hind
Age in 1911: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Shoreditch, London, England
Civil Parish: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: 281 Wood St, Walthamstow
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Dock Warehouse Foreman
Registration District: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration District: Walthamstow
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Piece: 9703
Household Members:
Name Age
William Henry Hind 47
Annie Hind 45 - Birmingham
Thomas William Hind 21 - Hackney

Married 4 years.


???

William Henry Hind
in the Essex, England, Church of England Marriages, 1754-1935
Name: William Henry Hind
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 43
Birth Date: abt 1864
Marriage Place: Walthamstow, St Mary The Virgin, Essex, England
Marriage Date: 30 Mar 1907
Father: Edward Hind
Spouse: Annie Baragwanath



Father Edward?? When he married Poppy his father was also named William Henry Phillips - unless that was a mistake on the part of the registrar.

Annie Baragwanath
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Annie Baragwanath
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation to Head: Stepdaughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham, Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: West Ham
Sub-registration District: Walthamstow
ED, institution, or vessel: 44
Neighbors:
Piece: 1629
Folio: 115
Page Number: 47
Household Schedule Number: 287
Household Members:
Name Age
Lannie Baragwanath 55
Thomas Baragwanath 30
Richard Baragwanath 27
Frederick Baragwanath 25
Henry Baragwanath 22
William Baragwanath 20
Walsh Baragwanath 16
Annie Baragwanath 38

?? Because birthplace given as shoreditch in 1911 census -

HIND, WILLIAM HENRY mms RAVEN
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 161


???

William Hind
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Hind
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: 1863
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: London England
Civil Parish: Worksop
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Worksop
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration District: Worksop
Sub-registration District: Worksop
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household Schedule Number: 1
Piece: 3459
Folio: 63
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
John Joseph Hind 26
Mary Hind 25
Sarah E Hind 6/12 - daughter
William Hind 8 - nephew

I'd found that marriage to Annie and it's possible that it's a second marriage but I'd discounted it because the father's name didn't match. I also failed to find a "matching" death for his first wife - assuming that was Florence!

It's almost as if William Henry Phillipps was also known as William Henry Hind!

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HIND, FLORENCE POPPY MARY ANNIE PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 584
HIND, MABEL PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 495
HIND, VIOLET PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 495

Just in case the Shoreditch birth for William is correct -

HIND, LYDIA mms RAVEN
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 157


Lydia Hind
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Lydia Hind
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: 1861
Relation: Daughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Horton
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration District: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration District: Bethnal Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household Schedule Number: 152
Piece: 493
Folio: 17
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Hind 45 - shoemaker. [Birthplace unreadable.]
Lydia Hind 10



Edward Hind
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Edward Hind
Registration Year: 1847
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London
Volume: 2
Page: 352
Records on Page:
Name
Edward Hind
Sophia Raven

From the C1901 ArgyllGran found, the two children - Poppy and William - were called Phillipps. Yet they were both registered as Hind.

Florence & William were married 1886, the two children were born after that.

So, given their registration as Hind, it seems probable (?) that they were born to William Hind and another Petherick daughter. Then, for some reason, they were adopted by Florence & William.

Does that stand up to examination?

There is one Petherick daughter I have yet to identify:

PETHERICK, - ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 491

and another that I have yet to follow up:

Eunice, who appears in the C1881 but I have not yet found her GRO record.

I think we can rule out Eunice, but the unnamed Petherick might just be a candidate?

That marriage:

Edward Hind
Sophia Raven

is interesting. There would be a strong probability that a daughter, assuming they had one, would also be named Sophia. Remember the Sophia Tyler who was William Phillipps' sister in law?

Based on the second marriage to Annie Baragwanath, William Hind's DoB is about 1864, in which case:

HIND, WILLIAM HENRY RAVEN
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 161

Deaths of the twins Mabel and Violet (Poppy's sisters):

HIND, VIOLET 0
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 316

HIND, MABEL 0
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 304

It's bed time here, I'm afraid, so I'll pick this up again tomorrow.

This discussion has been really helpful, it's opened up some new possibilities and filled in some gaps, but still hasn't come up with an explanation of the Hind / Phillipps duality.

Thank you!