Genealogy Chat

Thank you Argyllgran i will go on that lead the trouble is being travellers and having the Smith surname a little bit tricky to say the least

If your partner's memory is correct, then Winnie must have died shortly after the 1939 Register was compiled in Sept 1939.

But even if she died in Hillingdon, that doesn't mean her death was registered there.

Hillingdon would have been part of Uxbridge reg district at that time - but there's no death of a Win* Smith in Uxbridge 1939-50.


Looking at deaths in Middlesex as a whole, there aren't any which fit the DOB given in 1939.
The nearest in age would be these:

Deaths Dec 1948 (>99%)
Smith Winifred H 41 Ealing 5e 17

Deaths Dec 1942 (>99%)
Smith Winifred M 38 Fulham 1a 319

Deaths Dec 1940 (>99%)
Smith Winifred 31 Brentford 3a 389


The Brentford one might be interesting to look at, in view of the boys' births in Brentford.

Sadly , finding her birth is almost certainly an impossible task, for lots of reasons.

We don't know her maiden name, or where she was born.
The stated DOB may not be correct.
Even if the DOB is correct, there are hundreds of girls named Winnie or Winifred, registered in last 2 quarters of 1906 - including several born specifically on 1 Sept 1906.
She and Noah didn't marry.
We haven't been able to find the children all with one mmn.
In any case, they might not all have had the same mother.
As they were a travelling family, the children could have been born anywhere, all in different places.
Smith is one of the worst names to research.
The children's forenames as given in 1939 may not have been therir first names.
Their births might have been registered under Winnie's birth surname.

No her grandmother died when her father Charles Smith born 1931 was only around 7 or 8 years old and she remembers her father saying he walked to Hillingdon Hospital Middlesex when she died

First question.......did your partner actually know her grandmother? If so, when and where did she last see her?

The Noah born in 1926 is the son of the one born in 1904 Winnie as seen on 1939 register born 1906 is my partners paternal grandmother i have been racking my brains trying to find her birth marriage or death.

The 1911 for Selina for our info.

1911 Census For England & Wales

Cananan Harlington Road Feltham, Feltham, Middlesex, England

Albert Smith Head Married Male 34 1877 Hawker Walton OT
Selina Smith Wife Married Female 30 1881 - Southampton
Robert Smith Son - Male 15 1896 - Hendon Mdx
Jemima Smith Daughter - Female 11 1900 - Felthammdx
Albert Smith Son - Male 9 1902 - Sunbur Mdx
Noah Smith Son - Male 4 1907 - Hounslow Mdx
Ethel Smith Daughter - Female 2 1909 - Hounslow Mdx
Render Smith Son - Male 0 1911 - Feltham Mdx


and finally, the 1939.

Caravenus Vine Place, Heston And Isleworth, Heston and Isleworth M.B., Middlesex,
Smith household
(3 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Lena Smith 26 Dec 1881 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties - 113 1
Matilda Dowling (Dubbin) 18 Aug 1917 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties - 113 2
Walter Smith 05 Oct 1898 Male Hawker - 113 3


Possible son, Albert?


16 Caravenus Vine Place, Heston And Isleworth, Heston and Isleworth M.B., Middlesex, England

The record for this person is officially closed.

Hilda Olddall (Peters) 12 Nov 1914 Female Press Operator - 108 2
The record for this person is officially closed.

Albert E J Smith 23 Aug 1901 Male Painter - 108 4
The record for this person is officially closed.

The record for this person is officially closed.

The record for this person is officially closed.

Ann Peters 08 Jun 1876 Female Showman - 108 1

Posted death of Noah b. 1926 on Page one

Unless I'm mistaken, the Noah we've been following so far was born in 1926.

The one married to Winnie, in the 1939 record you mention, was born in 1904:

Noah Smith Sr
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Noah Smith Sr
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 5 Jun 1904
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 52 Staines Road
Residence Place: Feltham, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Travel Caravan Farm Hand
Line Number: 34
Schedule Number: 68
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: BFBJ
Borough: Feltham
Registration district: 126/2.
Inferred Spouse:
Smith
Household Members Age
Noah Smith Sr 35
Smith 33 [ Winnie ] - 1 Sept 1906
[closed record ]
Albert Smith 11 - 19 Dec 1928
[ Two closed records ]
Cathleen Smith 4 - 27 June 1935
Jack Smith 2 - 16 Oct 1937
Baby [male ]



Even if they were the right family, there's no way of knowing where any of them were born, or where or when they died.
They were travellers, so could have gone anywhere, and they don't have unusual names.

Noah is the most unusual - but there's no birth matching the DOB stated on 1939 Register..
This would be the most likely death, going by age - but no proof without the cert.

Deaths Jun 1940 (>99%)
Smith Noah 35 Brentford 3a 350

But in any case, he's not the Noah born 1926.

Just because they say they were married doesn’t mean they were

Noah died in 1940 - see freebmd

Hi everyone i have made progress on the tree but have hit a snag Noah Smith is on 1939 register married to a Winnie Smith born 1 sep 1906 at 52 Staines Road Feltham but I can find no record of the marriage or her birth or death I am at a loose end as this is the prt of the tree that is missing .I wonder if anyone has the time or knowledge to assist me in this matter .Thank You

Good luck - let us know how you get on, and if you need further assistance

Thank you

Births Sep 1931 (>99%)
Smith Charles Smith Brentford 3a 181

I have just entered the above details at:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp

.........and could have had the cert sent out in about a week

Use the link, Peter, and enter the info from the record above

Thanks for your advice and all your help i will have to keep digging always been a mystery who Charles parents were for some reason

Thanks for explaining Peter. You could try requesting it from the local registrars office but don’t use the GRO references as local offices just use their own.

So it would be, say, Charles Smith, born 3rd quarter 1931 Brentford

Or Gildroy Smith death 1st quarter 1936 , Brentford

Edit: Looks like Brentford now comes under Ealing.
But bear in mind that this might not be possible at the current time.

i have tries ordering the certificate but the volume and page number shows no record

I don’t think Peter has had the GRO refs until they were posted on here. If I’m misreading the situation,, apologies

So we can both find the Charles one in Brentford but the GRO can't?

Or is Peter saying he has this one but it is the wrong one?

Already mentioned at 12:02, along with possible Brentford births of Walter and Noah.

However, the Staines birth apparently turns out to be Noah, and not the 1935 Brentford one with no first name registered.


Just in case the 1935 birth is from the same family, this might be the death of that child, unnamed at birth;

SMITH, GILDROY 0
GRO Reference: 1936 M Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 168