Genealogy Chat

I am going round in circles looking for a marriage of Maria Flatman b1834 Norfolk. Parents are Thomas & Harriett Flatman

I searched in several places and found either she married John Dent or Henry Browne in 1869.
I have searched the census in1871 & 1881 with both possible men but cannot tie her to either properly.

Is anyone willing to have another look for me as i must be missing something.
in 1871 there is a Henry Browne with 9 children but some were born before the marriage and Marias date of birth a few years out??

Anybody have any spare time, would be appreciated thankyou

Florence in the hebrides

Have you done any searches for children on the GRO site? It’s FREE

Is she single in 1861? Where is she living?

Maria is in a lot of trees on Ancestry. Some claim she married William Moore in Suffolk in 1853 and after his death say she married Isaac Hayden in London 1886 before returning to Suffolk. :-S

For our info - is this the family? If so, not seeing her obviously in 1861

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Street, Thorpe Abbotts, Depwade, Norfolk, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Harriot Flatman Wife Married Female 44 1807 Paish relief Suffolk, England
Eliza Flatman Daughter Unmarried Female 18 1833 Power loom weaver Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
Maria Flatman Daughter Unmarried Female 17 1834 Power loom weaver Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
Charlotte Flatman Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1838 - Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
Emma Flatman Daughter Unmarried Female 6 1845 - Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
James Flatman Son Unmarried Male 3 1848 - Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
George Flatman Son Unmarried Male 0 1851 - Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
Elizabeth Hinds Lodger Widow Female 30 1821 - Brockdish, Norfolk, England
William Hinds Lodger Unmarried Male 17 1834 - Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
Mary A Hinds Lodger Unmarried Female 9 1842 - Norfolk, England

Maria Moir (or Moore) daughter of Thomas Hayden age 51 a widow married isaac hayden in Tower Hamlets on 11/10 /1886 - Ancestry

The 1868 marriage (OP) was to John Dent - or at least the banns were for them. Unfortunately only the banns so no further info.

Transcript of Maria's record

First name(s) Maria
Spouse's residence St Peters Thetford
Last name Flatman
County Norfolk
Sex Female
Country England
Condition spinster
Archive Norfolk Record Office
Year 1868
Archive reference PD 167/16
First banns date 27 Dec 1868
Archive year range 1851-1893
Parish Thetford, St Peter
Page 53
Residence St Peters Thetford
Record set Norfolk Banns And Marriages
Diocese Norwich
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's first name(s) John
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Spouse's last name Dent

There are a number of possible marriages:
Marriages Dec 1849
Flatman Maria Hoxne 13 1127
Marriages Jun 1850
Flatman Maria Blything 13 665
Marriages Dec 1850
Flatman Maria Hartismere 13 1117
Marriages Mar 1853
FLATMAN Maria Hoxne 4a 665
Marriages Sep 1862
Flatman Maria Hoxne 4a 756
Marriages Mar 1869
FLATMAN Maria Thetford 4b 627

Grey ghost yes that is the correct family ty.
i looked at 1871 census but neither the marriage to dent or moore fits??

in 1861 there is only one maria flatman a servant in st andrews,suffolk, unmarried.
1850 places her at 16..too young to marry?

Not too young - girls of 12 could marry

ame: Maria Mori
[Maria Flatman]
[Maria Moore]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 51
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1835
Marriage Date: 11 Oct 1886
Marriage Place: St Paul, Bow Common, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: Thomas Flatman
Spouse: Isaac Hayden
Marriage Age: 45
Father: Isaac Hayden
Register Type: Parish Register

Maria Flatman
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Maria Flatman
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Gender: Female
Where Born: Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Thorpe Abbots
Hundred: Earsham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration District: Depwade
Sub-registration District: Harleston
Neighbors:
Piece: 758
Book: 30
Folio: 4
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Flatman 43
Harriott Flatman 30
Elizabeth Flatman 10
Eliza Flatman 9
Maria Flatman 7
Charlotte Flatman 5
Jane Flatman 2


Maria Moore
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Maria Moore
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: 1835
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Moore
Gender: Female
Where Born: Thorpe, Norfolk, England <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Leiston
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Blything
Sub-registration District: Westleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 105
Piece: 1178
Folio: 95
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
William Moore 30
Maria Moore 26
Emma Moore 3
William Flatman 19 - boarder, painter, Thorpe
William Croft 19

MOORE, EMMA mmn FLATTMAN
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 04B Page 222


William Flatman doesn't seem to be a brother of Maria - maybe a cousin.

FLATMAN, WILLIAM mmn COLMAN
GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 13 Page 49


Some of Maria's siblings:

Charlotte Flatman
Vital • England, Norfolk Bishop's Transcripts, 1685-1941
Name Charlotte Flatman
Sex Female
Christening Date 30 Jul 1837
Christening Place Thorpe Abbott, Norfolk, England
Father's Name Thomas Flatman
Mother's Name Harriet

FLATMAN, GEORGE mmn WEST
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 13 Page 42

FLATMAN, GEORGE mmn WEST
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 13 Page 41

FLATMAN, JANE mmn WEST
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 13 Page 41


Parents' marriage:

Thomas Flatman
Vital • England Marriages, 1538–1973
Name Thomas Flatman
Sex Male
Spouse's Name Harriet West
Spouse's Sex Female
Marriage Date 24 May 1831
Marriage Place Thorpe Abbots, Norfolk, England, United Kingdom
Marriage Place (Original) Thorpe-Abbots, Norfolk, England


The Moore family in 1871:

Myna Messe
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Myna Messe
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: 1835
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil parish: Ipswich St Mary Stoke
Town: Ipswich
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England
Registration district: Ipswich
Sub-registration district: St Matthew
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 28
Piece: 1751
Folio: 103
Page number: 5
Household Members Age Relationship
William Messe 40 Head
Myna Messe 36 Wife
Ellen Messe 9 Daughter - Leiston, Suffolk
Alice Messe 5 Daughter - Leiston, Suffolk
James Messe 1 Son - Deptford


MOORE, JAMES mmn FLATMAN
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 709

MOORE, ALICE mmn FLATMAN
GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in BLYTHING Volume 04A Page 618

MOORE, ELLEN mmn FLATMAN
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in BLYTHING Volume 04A Page 585

More details from the 1886 marriage posted by ErikaH

From image -
Isaac 45 a Widower and Labourer s/o Isaac a Labourer
Maria - 51 a Widow d/o Thomas Flatman a Labourer
Both of 41 ? Tanners Road
both made their mark
Witnesses - John and Catherine Hayden

Maria's surname has been spelt Moir but as she made her mark and probably had an East Anglian accent !

Only says Norfolk for Maria, not where in Norfolk

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Beale Street, West Ham, London & Essex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Isaac Hayden Head Married Male 50 1841 General labourer London, Middlesex, England
Maria Hayden Wife Married Female 54 1837 Charwoman Norfolk, England

and again 1901 - says N/K, Norfolk

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
67, Burrard Road, West Ham, London & Essex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Girling Head Married Male 50 1851 Dock laborer Plaistow, Essex, England
Ellen Girling Wife Married Female 39 1862 - Norfolk, England
Ethel Girling Daughter Single Female 15 1886 - Plaistow, Essex, England
William Girling Son Single Male 13 1888 General laborer Plaistow, Essex, England
Phyllis Girling Daughter Single Female 4 1897 - Plaistow, Essex, England
Maria Hayden Mother-in-law Widow Female 67 1834 - Norfolk, England

--------------------------
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1882 (>99%)
Girling George Bethnal Green 1c 633
MOORE Ellen Bethnal Green 1c 633

1911 - has her born Thorpe Abbott !!!

1911 Census For England & Wales
68 Holbrook R Plaistow E, West Ham, London & Essex, England

First name(s) Maria
Last name Hayden
Sex Female
Birth year 1835
Age 76
Relationship to head Head
Marital status Widow
Occupation None private means
Birth place Thorp Abbot Norfolk
Full address 68 Holbrook R Plaistow E, West Ham, London & Essex, England
Parish West HamRegistration district West Ham
County London, Essex
Registration district number 188
Sub district Plaistow
Sub district number 3Country England
Enumeration district 17

Archive series RG14
Piece number 9427
Schedule 127

Census reference RG14PN9427 RG78PN507A RD188 SD3 ED17 SN127

Name: Ellen Moore
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1861
Marriage Date: 8 Oct 1882
Marriage Place: St Thomas, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: William Moore
Spouse: George Girling
Register Type: Parish Register

from image -
George 29 Bachelor Labourer go 16 Globe Street, Father john a Carpenter
Ellen 21, spinster, no occupation. Of 7 Globe Street, Father an Engineer

witnesses - William ?Abeney and Emma Hall

Maria's first marriage

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1853 (>99%)
FLATMAN Maria Hoxne 4a 665
MOORE William Hoxne 4a 665

Possible death as she was in West Ham on previous census

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1918 (>99%)
Hayden Maria 84 W.Ham 4a 62


HAYDEN, MARIA
buried on: 09 February 1918
recorded at: West Ham Cemetery (Newham)

Hi again.
Well I have just worked my way through the list of possible marriages and i think I have cracked it...hopefully

Marriage of Maria Flatman to William Howard 1850 Hartismere.
Maria's family are all around this area. he was born 1823 Norfolk so a bit older than her but i find them on the census in
1861 Downham
1871 Wisbeach
children

William Howard b 1855
Eliza Howard b 1858
Caroline Howard b 1862
Daniel Howard b 1867

I am positive this is the right marriage.

I took the marriages from free BMD.

I could order the cert to check her parents but ill leave that for now.

Process of elimination and cross checking the census.
Thankyou for all your suggestions.

No clue why i didnt look at freeBMD for a list of marriages the first time as I normally do!!

Florence in the hebrides

Original shows that that Maria born West Lexham which is much further North in Norfolk than Thorpe Abbott - don't think it's your Maria.

The census you refer to -

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Fen Road, Tilney St Lawrence, Wisbech, Norfolk, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Howard Head - Male 48 1823 - Norfolk, England
Maria Howard Wife - Female 35 1836 - West Lexham, Norfolk, England
William Howard Son - Male 17 1854 - Downham, Norfolk, England
Eliza Howard Daughter - Female 14 1857 - Marham, Norfolk, England
Caroline Howard Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Marham, Norfolk, England
Daniel Howard Son - Male 4 1867 - Flitcham, Norfolk, England

also says Lexham on the 1861 and children's mmn Seaman (Wm reg'd as Wm Seaman Howard)

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1855 (>99%)
Howard William Freebridge L 4b 931
HOWELL Elizabeth Freebridge L 4b 931
SEAMAN Maria Freebridge L 4b 931
TURNER James Freebridge L 4b 931